Hi mapman,

The room is not bad at all. I have no real problems in the bass department really. Plenty of deep, tuneful, controlled bass with a kind of air about it with lots of texture.

The Virtual dynamics cables are the finest I have heard for this. It seems to make up for some sensitivity in the speaker and lets the amps grip the drivers.

I had subs before, but I was hardly using them so I sold them. It was great for movies though! Silly deep bass but fun. Not much use for music. Remember the Apogee goes down to 30hz on its own. The subs went to 10hz.

There is nothing down there though. If you look at the music through spectrum monitor you will see nothing near 30.

Well maybe I will send you a file of 24bit 192khz. Your problem will be reading it and decoding it. As I said to Florian if he wants to hear it I will have my studio computer with me anyway, so it wont be a problem.

chadeffect August 23, 2008 17:24

"I could even bring some high bandwidth orchestral recordings straight from the studio 192 Khz @ 24 bit completely untouched and straight from the mixing desk. "

please bring these if you ever come my way as well!

LOL.

mapman August 23, 2008 16:14

Florian,
you seem to have a habit of upsetting people. I understand your passion for the speaker though.

If you are giving Giselle one, I think I can speak for some of us on the Gon and say we wouldnt mind a look!

But unfortunately she is dating a American football player so I hope you can run fast or you may find those ribbons stuffed where the sun dont shine.

By the way all joking aside, if you are up for it when you get your speakers done, I could bring over the DCS if you fancy? I will be recording in Berlin in november.

I could even bring some high bandwidth orchestral recordings straight from the studio 192 Khz @ 24 bit completely untouched and straight from the mixing desk.

You will never get a chance to hear that resolution again I doubt. In fact maybe you could come to the recording session and see what I mean by the above comments? Interested?

chadeffect August 23, 2008 16:07

Chad,

I've had bad sound experiences with wood floor boards in the past also. THey can really wreck havoc with the sound, I've found. I'm lucky now in that I have two rooms with solid concrete floors covered by thin but dense carpet that provide a rock solid foundation without ringing for my larger Ohms, and it really helps.

Sounds like your room is a real challenge but you have things well in hand after much experimentation, which is the only way to really get things "tuned in".

I suspect you have no need whatsoever, but as I'm sure you know, its easy to integrate a good sub to most any good system and make it more full range and add weight and authority to approach the bigger speaker designs out there that essentially integrate sub components out of the can, if desired. Its a very practical solution and one of the reasons many audiophiles do not feel compelled to turn to monster sized speaks.

In audio, components and careful integration is always where its at, even just within speaker systems.

Cheers!

mapman August 23, 2008 15:46

Giselle?

How about a picture of that girlfriend???

Just kidding.

Cheers all!

mapman August 23, 2008 14:26

Hi Esotheric,

i'd rather make love to my girlfriend. She is far more interesting then some audio n00bs trying to get someones attention on an audio forum. Your loss, not mine :-)

Cheers man

florianw August 23, 2008 12:56

Gallant Diva,

I feel I should clear this up for you.

I have spent a lot of time setting many speakers up in my listening room to get the best out of them. These include Magnepans,quads, Avantgardes, Audio Physics, Cabasse, Reference 3As and many I choose to forget!

The planars have always worked very well in this listening room as have the Avantgarde horns.

The Apogee works very well too. There is a slight toe in. The room correction and measurements I have has confirmed how well it works. The side wall hardly effects it. There is some reinforcement. Just right for my taste. The correction removes 3db of it though.

The placement I have found for the Duettas does mean one channel near the corner, but there is a gap of around 80cm-1m from the bottom corner of the speaker. As explained earlier the picture above was taken with the speakers pushed back for building work at the time.

The Duettas are around 2m from the back wall. Although the back wall is on a slight angel moving away from the speaker . The side walls angle slightly outwards making for a vague "V" shape if you know what I mean. Listening position is in the wide part of the "V".

You commented on a table near the speaker. It is just a small glass side table that moves around to hold a wine glass or remote control when listening. Its nothing to worry about.

The wooden floor boards have been sound proofed with rock wool under them, and I have an extremely thick underlay then thick pile carpet with a heavy wool rug on top. The room is also full of soft furnishing. A large thick sofa is the listening seat. The room is capable ofvery tight bass and has an airy feel to it probably due to the high ceiling and a lot of natural light.

Again as explained elsewhere above I have world famous music producers musicians arrangers and engineers over all the time to listen and relax over a drink or two. I bring test mixes back from world famous recording studios to check the work that has been done during the day etc. It sounds as it should. Fact. If it didnt the system would be changed.

chadeffect August 23, 2008 11:34

ah well then our loss i suppose
was just trying to flatter you a bit .but please remember its only a speaker .dont feel all that special .people have mega yachts .airplanes ,grand homes .... you are a bit stuck up .its not like youre shagging giselle bundchen and we want a picture of the act .... man you must be boring .go and make love to your ribbon

esotheric August 23, 2008 09:10

Well, I like my Apogees, and I like the sound they reproduce. I'm not sure if they sound better, or worse, than anyone else's?....but no matter, because I only listen to mine.

Dave

sogood51 August 22, 2008 20:51

Chad, home invasions are vexations to the spirit. Peace to your music experience. I envy you. My DAC has been out for repair two months.

muralman1 August 22, 2008 20:21

Gallant Diva, I know you are not liable to even read my reply. I do have to correct your assumption, though. I was not talking Scintilla vs. Full Range. I was talking MY Scintilla and a specific Full Range system.

The fact of the matter here, is this thread is not about comparative speakers. It is about system application. I am excited for Chad's enthusiasm. We are believers in our class D systems. We are sort of a sub fraternity.

muralman1 August 22, 2008 20:18

Hi guys,

I am blessed with very good sound it took a lot of work and cash.

If Florian and I got together and mixed our equipment I am sure it would be one of the finest systems you could find. The DCS is beautiful. Dont dismiss the amps properly set up either (sorry Flo).

Was anybody suggesting that any of these Apogees were bad? They all have their strengths at the various price points.

Florian has managed to find a very rare Apogee. I am sure it is great. I think all the Apogees I have heard have a "sound". A very nice sound too.

For the more well heeled among us we may be able to tell the difference between an Diva and a Scintilla blind folded.

There are some truths here in this thread though.

1 Apogee made some great sounding speakers.
2 some are suited to various sized rooms.
3 The newer components available today will raise the sound quality by a worth while degree from the originals.

The placement of my speakers is slightly different from the picture above as I explained above, but placement aside, It really sings and gets out of the way.

The duettas in my listening room work beautifully. I doubt I could get anymore out of them.

I have a pair of Divas that are being brought up to the same standard as my Duetta technology wise with all the lesson learned over the years.

I dont think I could reasonably fit anything bigger than the Diva in my listening room. I love my equipment, but I dont want to be dominated by it. Its not the 80s anymore. Gear should be heard and not seen as much as possible, well until someone asks "wow that sounds great what is it?" Well my friend this is an Apogee and...

chadeffect August 22, 2008 19:57

Gallant_diva,

I think its a reasonable trade off for many from what I can see giving up some imaging accuracy for bigger soundstage and fuller bottom end. Not an uncommon compromise scenario for many speaks, not just eletrostats or planars. Plus, practically, with limited space to start with, it may be more practical and keep the speaks out of the way.

I'm not sure I'd call it "wrong" though. Probably also not "ideal". It has advantages and disadvantages as do most things.

I had to get rid of a pair of Magnepans that I adored when I moved to my current house because I could ever get them set up as well as in my old house/room without being obtrusive, especially with kids running around with risk of collision. The low end and sound stage size was OK but imaging accuracy and depth suffered too close to the walls. I also determined that when set up best for imaging accuracy and depth of sound field, the low end suffered mainly.

mapman August 22, 2008 19:49

You guys see the beenefit of such placement? Next to side walls with a table at 2 feet. Read the manual carefully.

gallant_diva August 22, 2008 19:36

Florianw,

Very impressive + probably hard, maybe even impossible to beat as audio systems go. Congratulations.

I'm a bit jealous except for the having to shlepp things around with a forklift part.

Chad, there has to be some way to fit something like those into your flat?

So, Florian, is there a way to improve your setup from here? What kind of source electronics do you use? I'd love to hear Chad's DCS stuff on those.

And Cjfrbw, I agree as well. I can see the benefits of Chad's placement given his room configuration.

mapman August 22, 2008 19:14

Muralman: I will not indulge in this thread anymore but cannot help responding to your claim:

"I have heard both. You haven't. "

Haven't I said (and you know it well) that I have owned 3 pairs of Scintillas, 3 pairs of Divas, and 2 Fullranges, in addition to Stages (including what I call "butterfly, a stacked pair of Stages), C-Major, and Duettas. The Apogee forum is full of my reports in comparing these Apogees. Also the site here showing my system has all the details. Not only that but I have tried several permutations of amps on these various Apogees, in the same room. I know the sound of these Apogees like the back of my head. I even know the differences between various versions of Scintillas, Divas, and Fullranges, and you do not. I have even re-created, or re-built several crossovers for these Apogees. You do not even have the technical know-how of these speakers. So what do you mean by I have not heard them?

I have no interest in any of the discussion on this thread, one way or the other, but I am just correcting you that the *****The Scintilla is not better than the Fullrange*****

gallant_diva August 22, 2008 19:08

I don't agree that Chadeffect's positioning scheme is wrong. Yes, it tends to vary from the rote dogma that Aps should be out in the room away from the walls. However, corner loading Aps is very effective as well and can create a massive soundstage. Just as with horn loading, if the room sounds pretty good and is restricted in space, you can increase the nominal efficiency and dynamics by corner loading, as well as reinforcing bass.
I have a pair of corner loaded Centaur Minors used as surrounds raised about five feet in the air and pointed inward from the corners about 17 feet apart. When running the main stereo signal through them, using 300b amp and crossing over at 80 Hz to subwooofers, they play incredibly loud with a huge soundstage, quite a shocker. I got a similar effect when corner loading Stages.
I think that corner loading the larger Aps in a somewhat smaller room could create a dandy effect, especially with classical orchestra, if the room is compatible.

cjfrbw August 22, 2008 18:45

Dear Esotheric and Mapman,

i have no interest in posting (again) pictures of my setup. It is very unique and i am the only public owner of an Apogee Grand.

Here is the rundown: (i wrote this down before, so i just copied it)

* 89in tall
* 35in wide
* 47in deep
* 1300lbs per side
* 4 way speaker

1. Subwoofers are big brothers of Krell MRS
2. Speaker sits on "pured aluminium base"
3. Speaker frame is made out of steel
4. Two computer displays mounted inside the speaker shows status info and user settings
5. User can via remote control change volume level, rake, phase and presets of each driver
6. 4 Krell KAS Monoblocks build in for Subwoofer and Tweeter rated at 600 watts each with external powersupplies.
7. Crossover frequencys are 70Hz,250Hz and 9000Hz
8. Measured with Tact RCS 2.2XP inroom response is flat to 9.6Hz and signal stops at 7.8Hz
9. 17 pairs exist worlwide (2 in Israel, 1 in Germany (mine), 1 in Belgium (for sale), 1 in Bangkok, 2x in USA, 1 in Moskau) and i am still looking.
10. They also employ a motion sensor on the bass ribbon which then gets syncronized with the subwoofer! The sensor measures the foil excursion!

Here are some pics of the movement to my new place.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/tubehifi/vpost?id=2797745

Enjoy

PS: I dont toss stones, but know a ton about Apogee users, placements and many models.

florianw August 22, 2008 18:08

Haven't heard any Apogees in quite a while but liked them when I did. I understand they are a bear, reputably one of the toughest loads ever, to drive properly though.

A good class D amp that doubles power into 4 and then 2 ohms seems like a good choice on paper. I would go a similar way with my Ohms if I had need.

A system sourced from the DCS combo is starting off with one of the best digital sources I've heard a tremendous cornerstone to build around for sure.

Some people prefer monitors and some prefer full range. It ain't a crime to stop short of full range, especially in tight quarters where neighbors might be disturbed otherwise.

Speaker placement in the pics may not be optimal and the room sounds a bit tight on space, but this system must sound incredible nonetheless.

Florianw, if you want to toss stones, you should really post your system as well and share, especially given the assumption that it is quite unique and rare in its configuration.

mapman August 22, 2008 18:02

ah .i see
Florian .i am only trying to get on your nerves...sorry it was mean to be a bit of a joke really
the way i see it is that you are in possession of a unique commission ,you have gone a long way to improve this beast ( i too ...... i love apogee) .i am also sure that the process was tedious and the bill was salty
let me guess ,f;/.ck off components ,religious soldering ,stringent cables choice .wbts . etc etc

so show us then .feature the system in depth .take measuremens .you could have a mini site with the pics and stuff
its not about proving the point or not
check the system up ,see what it does ,pics on all corners .it may sound nerdy but after all only a few have been sold
if it was a car with the same number of units built ,it would be legendary ,for crying out loud it cost way more than a serious car
maybe people can listen one day????? ,have you ever shown your kit to the press ,it could be fun !!
it is sort of a really really rare object.
only you have one ,everyone in the factory died ,so MEASURE IT
if i had a grand spammed up ,i would do all of the above .... in this day and age where things are small and puny ,all multifunction devices ,ribbon speakers that are 2.30 tall several hundreds of kilos dont show up every day

if i was you .i will get out of this little audio debate and start on providing the world with the only webpage demonstrating a true milestone in loudspeaker design .
.... ladies and gentleman put your hands togheter for the apogee grand

esotheric August 22, 2008 16:54

Esotheric and Chad is dont own the Studio Grand! is own The Grand! 2.3meter tall, 4way!!! you guys dont even know the Model but claim to know something about apogees. lol

florianw August 22, 2008 10:20

Muralman1,
I am glad people are getting warmed up here.

As to the placement of my speakers, the picture above is an old one and doesnt really show where the speakers are normally situated in my listening room.

At the time of the picture above I just had the left channel pushed far into the corner while I had building work completed. Maybe I should retake a picture and post it. There is a much larger gap between the wall and the speaker.

It is an interesting point that the room correction has helped in getting the very last bit of solid soundstage detail. Maybe at the expense of some image size.


This Florian vs Chad debate started because one of us had a bad experience with an amp technology and one of us had a good one. Nothing new there...

chadeffect August 22, 2008 09:56

Not fanning any flames, just stating that there is no specific efficiency for the Grand as stated: four amplifiers with four drivers and an active crossover means four different efficiencies. That would also make the efficiencies additive in some manner, not logarithmic, across the four different amps. The ability of a large panel to project into the room also needs to be taken into account. No single amp is spec'd into a passive crossover, so the 84db figure is just some kind of careless bogus-ness. I know the Apogee speakers website states 84db, but I think it is incorrect or a wild guess based on the other Aps. The best you could do is specify four different efficiencies based on bandwidth and power for each one i.e. each ribbon would have its own efficiency based on its bandwith, the subwoofer with its bandwidth etc.
I suspect the Grand overall is pretty efficient compared to the other Aps.

cjfrbw August 22, 2008 06:50

Gallant Diva, I am hoping to take my system to the place we mentioned. I was invited to do so a couple months ago, when I had unfortunately just sold my precious digital source. When I get my new finer NOS source, I hope to still make the trip. I am not at all timid to put a Scintilla against that Full Range. I have heard both. You haven't.

All I wanted to say here about my system, is that careful component matching is the trick to bring out the best in class D. Chad agrees with me. It was a quiet conversation not meant to anger outsiders. Nor are we taking our mantra to your site, or Florian's.

It is not our intention to compare Apogees. The Grand is no doubt a magnificent sounding speaker. It's beauty is astounding. I have heard Slant 7 speakers that enthralled me in the small quarters I heard it. MiniGrand speakers have found a way into my heart on some material. I loved the sumptuous original Duetta Sig. I have heard grazzled Duettas too, and they are very different. Certainly room sizes limit various Apogee's usefulness.

Like I wrote earlier, Grands have subs, and I know folks that have to have them. I have no problem with that. I don't like the combination. I see you don't use subs either. Still, when my neighbor strikes up tyco drummers on his SGs and RELs, it shivers me to my bones.

I have not heard your system, and I have no opinion. I know someone who has and they loved it. I bet I would too. Does that mean I have fooled myself into thinking my system has a direct aim on reality? Although I have not heard your FRs, I have heard a lifetime of live music. That is what I am using as a guide.

At no time did we disparage the Grand. We never mentioned other speakers, nor did we compare our two. No one needled Florian into his peacock rattling. I wasn't even thinking of him. It's kind of funny how some folks will read a few posts and come to some conclusion quite foreign to the folks having the discussion in the first place.

The real fight is over class D and conventional amps. Like I said, I am open to competition between the two. It is in the execution that makes the difference. And that is why Chad and I were having a peaceful conversation. You and Carl are fueling a fire that should have been a non-starter.

muralman1 August 22, 2008 05:53

Muralman: I stopped paying attention to your posts for may be two years. The reason being you post the same content "my system is great". In fact if there is ever an Guinness Book of World Record for audio, you easily top the record of most posts on "my system is great". You have been doing this for years, almost on a daily basis, on every forum. In fact I do not recall you posted anything else that can inspire a reader. Now, that is not a crime. Nor am I offended by that but you step over boundaries of common sense. Just now when I saw this thread getting some heat, I read your recent posts and I must say I am appalled with your non-sense, that is, your claim that the Scintilla is better than the Fullrange. For one thing, you cannot afford the Fullrange (I am not being a snob but just stating a fact). Second, your Guiness Book Record qualification. Third, you are out of touch with reality.
In your quest to convince yourself that your system is indeed great, you go too far. When it irritates people like Florian you call it bad manner.

As much as I like the Scintilla (I owned 3 pairs of Scintillas), there is just no comparison between the Fullrange and Scintilla. So, keep repeating your satisfaction with your system but stop misinforming readers. I know what Fullrange you heard and I think that person is being gentle and kind with you by not responding to your claim.

Chad: From the picture I can tell you that your speakers are poorly placed. Apogees are most sensitive to their placement, unlike any other speaker. This way you will for sure not get any dynamics or imaging.

Esotheric: Dynamics is one of the desirable characteristics, not the only characteristics. For me coherence among drivers, transparency, living presence, imaging, sounstage, midrange purity, smoothness of highs, bass impact, quality of bass, and other sound characteristics are as important as dynamics. If you just want dynamics, you can buy ear bleeding subs from Circuit City and knock off your ear drums. When the Apogee Fullrange is properly setup and properly driven with decent electronics, its dynamics is more than I could desire. In my 26 by 16 by 11 especially built room, it shakes the walls more than I desire. I have not heard the Grand but based on the opinions by those who did hear it, there is a good reason to believe that it must be awesome, without lacking any dynamics.

Carl: Well said and logically put.

gallant_diva August 22, 2008 04:29