I only mentioned the demons because you have a class D amp. To see if I am right, turn the amps around and connect a very thin ribbon SC between the amps and speaker. If it is a stereo (I forgot) then just use one channel to test my hypothesis.

muralman1 February 11, 2009 23:42

Hi Muralman and Mapman,

I am on a whole new journey it would seem. I will look forward to trying amps out but I am in no rush to change right now.

Unfortunately I dont have the time to play with much new equipment at the moment.

Muralman I doubt the noise I am hearing is anything to do with the cabling. Though I am open to ideas.

The Apogees are still stunning speakers and do things even the trio doesnt, but that dynamic freedom is only available 1 way it would seem. I tried massive power on low sensitivity and now on high sensitivity. You just cant beat the laws of physics... yet! All that resistance cannot be beaten even with these lightening fast amps. Its like running with a ball and chain. Obviously the Trio has floors too though.

chadeffect February 11, 2009 23:10

Hi Chad, I don't know if this will be of any help, but here are two observations I have made over the evolution of my system.

Insulation on the ICs and SCs produce a distinct hiss even from the listener's position. The natural Scintilla, with it's soft light ribbons corrugated into a textbook sine wave, are every detail is audible, whether sourced from the music, or distortion gathered along the way of the to the speakers. Using nearly naked wires and ribbon have cleaned up all that hiss.

You are right about tubes. Even if tube amps can be designed to produce music without hiss, they still err on producing an overabundance of even order distortion. We are told that even order distortion is Ok, because listeners don't mind. I disagree. At least it bothers me. I can put my ear to my Apogee Scintillas and hear nothing but a microcosm of the music. In fact, without room interaction in the mix, the music I hear direct from the MRT is even more pure.

muralman1 February 11, 2009 20:27

If you can turn it up without realizing how loud it really is, that is generally a very good sign!

Some adhere to the theory that for a particular amp design that works well, it is disadvantageous to go with a model that provides way more power than you will ever use because higher power amps are not as clean and pure at a lower volume as lower power ones. I do not know if I necessarily subscribe to that theory.

I do think that per watt, a high current design like a good Class D does handle complex loads better at lower volumes often in terms of a more satisfying low end. If that is what you are getting currently but with only a tad of background hiss, you are probably in very good shape. I suspect that the sound produced from horn designs with complex loads (not sure if that fits the Avantgardes or not) will be even more sensitive to these types of load imbalances when they exist than less sensitive designs, but that is just my speculation. I am far from an expert on these horn designs.

mapman February 11, 2009 14:21

Hi Mapman and Muralman1,

A very different beast to drive indeed. The bel canto must wonder what has happened?A bit like training at high altitude then coming back down.

I have to say a good amp is a good amp. Be assured it sounds very good. Very percussive, fast and ultra clean, although there is some noise if you put your ear next to the horn. A slight hiss. Something I have never heard before as these amps make no noise at all normally.

I was laughing to myself thinking this must be the only pair of 110db horns driven by such power...madness? Actually not mad at all. Baring in mind the extra 20 odd db/watt the volume control setting is still reasonable.

My loud listening volume on the DCS dac with the Apogees is around number -20 on loud recordings, but I had good volume on the trio at -30. It is hard to tell how loud things are as there is no sign of distortion. The only way is to try to speak. When you realize you cannot hear yourself speak you know it is loud!

I am not sure what I will do amp wise in the long run. A dear friend of mine has offered me his Orpheus amps to drive them. They are a very nice amp maybe a bit lean. The Halcro would be amazing, but I just dont have the space anymore to put it in and I cannot face changing the cabling all over again.

I am not sure I will go back to tubes. If the noise is like that with my amps I cannot think what it will be with tubes. The last time I had Avantgardes I had ARC monos, the sound was sublime, but the noise was very bad when nothing was playing. Maybe its time for flea power? I will let you know how I get on. But as I said earlier the Ref1000s while probably not meant for such a speaker, with the rewiring of the sub for the electrical issues of bridged amps, sound very good. Most would not complain.

chadeffect February 11, 2009 11:34

My gut feel is that a high power class D amp may not be the best match to those high sensitivity horns, but do not know for certain and I am very interested to hear how it works out.

If the Bel Cantos work well with both Apogees and Avantgarde horns, then I would venture to say they will work well with virtually any speaker out there.

mapman February 11, 2009 01:22

You might look at Pass Labs first Watt for solid state, or any of the wonderful SET amps built to service easy loads.

muralman1 February 11, 2009 01:10

Your amp will need to find other clients in order to get it's exercise now with those high efficiency horns in place of hard to drive Apogees!

I'm definitely interested in how it all works out. Those are much different beasts. Keep us posted!

mapman February 10, 2009 23:34

So I plugged in the Avantgarde Trios in white...

19 Ohms and 110db/watt. The first thing to notice is the strange sculpted look. Like a pair of aliens landed in the listening room. Someone called them snowmen with bazookers.

Due to the nature of the active subs, driving them with my Bel cantos (slightly over kill!) did cause some problems, and the amp suffered for a while until the issue with the ground/negative connection with the subs was dealt with. But it was obvious that something serious was on the cards.

More to follow...

chadeffect February 10, 2009 21:15

Hi Muralman1,
sorry I have not reported back to you regarding the Divas performance. I was hoping to run them in over christmas.

It turned out that there was a wrong value in a pair of the inductors. So I have not been using them. They went back to Apogee (John). I should get them back in the next week or 2. So watch this space.

Yes it took a long time for the Graz ribbons to settle in my Duetta sigs. They were forward and zingy for a while. I found them better in every way anyway, and after a few months of use they became natural and sublime. Way better dynamics, tighter and faster bass etc. They sound great at high SPL.

Meanwhile I may be back on the path to Trios. I found a pair...The question is in such times should I buy them?

chadeffect January 23, 2009 15:26

Hi Chad, no response yet over your new Divas. All I can say is, grazzled speakers are a devil to break in. I found playing them hard for several days, then giving them the same period of rest in between works wonders. I had all but given up last week when I gratefully added my old speakers into the mix. Half way through this week, I figured I needed to give the grazzled ribbons another big push. To my surprise, almost all the tweeter over activeness dissipated, and the bass has come to life too.

muralman1 January 21, 2009 21:50

Hi Muralman1,
i will give you the low down on the divas shortly. I have been away recording so I have not had a chance to even burn them in yet. I am hoping to lock myself away over the holidays. So by the end of next week I should have some time. What I can tell you is that they have been done to perfection by Apogee to my specs with all the lessons learned from the Duettas.

All new Graz ribbons, all new wiring, better connectors to the ribbons, binding posts, simplified new xcross overs with bypassed caps (Caps are Mundorf silvergold in oil, plus a few Clarity caps from a new range they have designed), Mundorf copper foil inductors, in suspended external boxes.

I did all I could to bring the Diva up to modern specs, cost no object. Well when I say cost no object I would have liked to have put Dueland caps in but that would have more than doubled the cost of the caps which was already sky high.

I cant wait to get back home, but which track to play first?

chadeffect December 15, 2008 00:52

Hey Chadeffect, when are you going to give us the scoop on your new Divas? I heard grazzled Divas at Rich. He was using, at the time, some Perraux amps. The sound was underwhelming. I really don't know what they sound like in a good system.

muralman1 December 12, 2008 22:44

Alas the deal with the Trio fell through at the last minute. So I will have to try again and find another pair of trios...

It is a little upsetting but it could be worse. I still have my beloved Apogees.

chadeffect November 23, 2008 21:30

haha Mapman,
I hope I dont need the ear plugs for myself! I will keep you informed as to my findings when they eventually arrive.

The last time I had Avantgardes it was a hoot, though I had some problems integrating the bass units because I didnt have enough sockets on the conditioner and it meant 1 sub had clean power and a nice power cable and the other did not. It was a good advert for clean power.

chadeffect November 05, 2008 19:04

I was exp[osed to some red kryptonite recently. I'm probably just unnaturally jealous as a result!

You have some interesting listening ahead! Lucky guy!

Don't forget the earplugs for the neighbors!

I'm anxious to hear about your findings!

mapman November 04, 2008 20:22

Hello Muralman1, Mapman,
my two favorite super heroes. One should be careful joking about such things on these pages. It could be true! I havent had any hate mail from the Apogee owners club so far...

But you will be pleased to hear there has been no defection just yet. The trios didnt arrive and delivery has been put off a little longer, maybe next week.

So I can still don my low sensitivity Apogee cape with matching pants.

chadeffect November 04, 2008 19:50

Treason!

mapman November 02, 2008 16:41

Sorry to hear of your defection. Of course, you know, this is the end of a beautiful friendship. :)

muralman1 November 02, 2008 16:26

Most of you who look through these pages will probably know I have always been a planar speaker lover. Today, while I am obviously keeping my beloved Apogees, I move to Avantgarde Trios...

Yes High sensitivity (110 db/watt) horns have got me. Lets see how it pans out.

chadeffect November 02, 2008 09:56

New Ref 1000mrk2 Bel cantos! What a great company. Bettering an already astonishing amp. What next?

chadeffect October 16, 2008 20:40

I have been trying out the equibit amplifier technology from Lyngdorf over the last few days.

First impressions are of more air in the treble than the ICE power amps.(Not the new ICE2 boards). I dont think they quite have the same separation or very deep bass as the Bel canto Ref1000s have, but still very fine and could suit some tastes better. There seems to be better back to front soundstage depth with the equibit. These amps are really very good and also have room correction built in!

If it is not the case already, these amplifier technologies will soon become the only amplifier options I am sure.

For people wanting high resolution, great power handling and control, ultra low distortion, highly energy efficient and compact amps where else can you look? Hopefully this will force sensible pricing for all high end amplification too.

For years I had very expensive amps from very fine and well known manufacturers, and these relatively cheap amps completely out perform them in just about every way IMHO.

From what I have read the new ICE2 boards have addressed many areas of the design and improved power handling, dropped distortion even further and extended bandwidth. I hope to have some to try very soon and to be able to try them side by side.

chadeffect September 20, 2008 22:12

"Even on the youtube site played through my lap top speaker you can hear the poise and freedom of the trio."

Yes, I did notice that as well.

mapman September 08, 2008 00:34

Hi Muralman,
You must be lucky today, no shark attacks yet!

The Avantgarde Trio is daft for most normal sized rooms I would agree. But I also know a few women who think the Apogee is daft too, including my better half. She thinks I am nuts. Even though I have caught her blasting the Apogees with her favorite music and singing along many times.

I took her to a classical concert in London a few months ago. We had good seats and it was a beautiful concert. As we were leaving she said to me "you know I think it sounds better at home". I knew what she meant. At home the perspective is closer.

My worry with the Trio is nothing will ever have the impact and contrast, even if you had your head pressed up against the double basses...

chadeffect September 08, 2008 00:02

Mapman,

I have tried the Avantgarde Uno and know it pretty well. I have heard the Duo many times too. They are good with palpable midrange, but the bass can suffer depending on the room and set up. The horn loaded bass in the trio is something else. It makes the trio seamless like the Apogee can be.

I had many years with Magnepans and found they needed some volume to bring them to life. It could have been the amps I had though. I dont find low volume listening a problem with the gear I have now. It is just as clear and defined.

The Avantgarde sounds just as good at low volumes as at higher volumes.

PS Even on the youtube site played through my lap top speaker you can hear the poise and freedom of the trio.

chadeffect September 07, 2008 21:56