" Puts an end to any discussion about digital vs analogue."

I am really curious to listen to Scarlatti trio, if your statement is really based on comparing your Scarlattis with finest analog gear. I am arranging a demo for next week and really want to see how these DCS sound like. I used to listen to older version (Purcell, Elgar etc) but found those a bit too analytical and cold sounding to my taste and they were miles away from giving the most natural and live presentation when compared to a hiend analog gear.

I am also an ARC fan as you Chad. Currently I have Ref-3 Ref-610T combo. And who knows, maybe after listening new DCS I can be a DCS fan as well.

Happy Listenings.

number95 February 15, 2008 15:47

System edited: The slow but sure arrival of the DCS Scarlatti digital system. Unbelievable sound. Puts an end to any discussion about digital vs analogue etc. The most natural, real, "reach out and touch" sound... and thats just with the clock added! The DAC arrives next week. Cant wait. Lives in a different universe to any cd player I have ever heard.

chadeffect February 10, 2008 11:05

I have to say I wouldnt say no to a pair of Scintillas. Although the last thing I need is more stuff!

chadeffect January 24, 2008 21:40

I am attempting to get a bigger box AN DAC. When I do, my amp and preamp builder will tear out what innards he deems inferior, and send back a DAC that has all the open, deep and wide delivery of the AN, but also all the attack, zing, and POW!! AN is not known for.

I bought a venerable PSA Lambda transport, and he did the same thing to it. It has been favorably compared to some big ticket transports.

If I can, I go cheap. The Scintillas I have being redone by the soon famous Rich Murray will be for sale. I will insist local pick up so the buyer can hear them. If I make the profit, I think probable, I can take my speakers to Rich.

muralman1 January 24, 2008 20:47

Ha ha Muralman1,
I think we have the right speakers! I dont think it is just a question of hairs on the back of the neck. The Avantegardes would probably take the hair off the top of your head too!
Which CD players do you rate?

chadeffect January 24, 2008 20:07

You have to have a huge room in order to utilize the big horns. I have heard
such a set up, and I have to say I couldn't live with that too long.

I prefer my Scintilla's circumspect sound. It is accurate, does not overplay, and
can be listened to all day without fatigue, while raising the hairs on the back of
my neck regularly.

I have not heard the Zanden. Too many tubes again.............. :)

muralman1 January 24, 2008 17:52

Hi Muralman1,
I am quite happy with my sound. You are welcome to have a listen.

The hifi has very little signature itself. No noise. And thanks to the clean mains and its own spur and filtering there is no hash or smudging if you know what I mean? I worked hard on all that. 2x 60 amper feeds @ 240v too.
I agree with you. The less stuff in the way the better. I wont get us started on the ways of the valve again. I am worn out!
I will probably be shot by the speaker police but...have you heard the Avantgarde horns? They have the kind of impact I believe you are searching for and like. Its like listening on steroids and using probably 20 watts if that!
I know you are like me an Apogee lover. But you have to work quite hard to get a large ribbon to do impact in that kind of way. I use very fast and powerful amps to do it. But to get the integration and seemless presentation of an Apogee from a horn is another whole other journey. I dont know of any speakers that can do it with such grace like an Apogee.

Does the zanden use no oversampling/upsampling? I seem to remember its purist like that. I would love to hear one in my set up as I have only heard it on Avalons with their own Zanden valve amps( 300B i think). Dont get me started now

chadeffect January 24, 2008 16:27

Hi Chad,

Our system are world apart. I would love to hear yours. Like all systems I am
eager to hear, they are thousands of miles apart.

My amp and preamp require a simple circuit digital. The fewer chips, and
tubes, the better. Instead of the power tubes AN uses, I favor a good diode.
Tubes introduce too many variables IMO.

Besides that, AN gear is too polite. I want my rim shots and crash cymbals to
whack loud. I want bugles that bite. I think you know what I mean.

Women singers must sound human, and not seraphim. I don't want body
added. It is a voice, not voluptuous hips that was recorded.

Cellos should sound rich. Some folks gauge their system with how rich. That
is a never ending quest. Every caramel coloring tube will assist that quest.
Does that make it more real? Of course not.

Bass is a necessity to full actualization of believability. Sometimes it exists as
only excited sympathetic ringing, like a guitar belly.

I am not looking for a system sound. I am trying for proper sound suiting the
player or singer.

Yadayada, you get my meaning.

muralman1 January 23, 2008 20:54

Hi Muralman1,

It has been a while since I last heard a non oversampling machine.
I have found you have to work hard to get CD players to sound at their best.
Apart from the usual burn in and leaving it powered up, cables, internal fuses and unclean connectors can make surprising differences. Deoxit is the best cleaner I have found in that it sounds good straight away.

I used to use studio contact cleaners in the past and found it made my system sound bright then would ease back to a more natural presentation after a while.

chadeffect January 23, 2008 20:18

I saw Bel Canto and so thought......... :) No matter.

I have yet to hear an oversampler that does not sound contrived on my system. The difference between oversamplers and non oversamplers is substantial.

muralman1 January 20, 2008 23:51

Hi Muralman1
To be honest the amps we were speaking about are not really class D but switching amps. Ah well...

On Oversampling etc I cannot really say. Its all about how it is done.
DCS works well upsampling to DSD but the firewire connection is meant to be a weak point. I use it upsampling to DSD with no filters in for Red book or DSD(obviously for dsd).

That Reimyo CDP777 is beautiful too. Its an XRCD player using the K2 chip set.

I think the Levinson now shows its age. But was one of the first upsamplers I believe. Lovely at the time. The later players seem to be more dynamic with more detail and better tracking of phrase and dynamic. Freer sounding with less grain.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 23:19

Hi Florian,
Resolution? I have seen your CD player man. By todays standards its like an ipod . The players we were discussing on email are in a totally different league.

You need valves I understand why now. Its cool.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 23:03

Chad, I am sure you would agree class D demands out of the box thinking in utilizing it's strengths. Your digital end is light years more sophisticated than my highly tweaked NOS DAC and Lambda.

I don't care for oversampling in the slightest. Leaving out all filtering, the music seems freer, more alive.

On theory, the upsampling of your DCS should give performances over that of the more common oversampling players. I would like to have your opinion of their differences.

muralman1 January 20, 2008 18:37

And Flo, just what do you think Chad is going to find investigating me. It wasn't me who was drubbed out of the Asylum.

muralman1 January 20, 2008 18:08

Hi Muralman1,
we are all a little that way. Some people dont want change.

I love the fact this technology and performance is becoming cheap and competing with extremely exotic equipment from the past. (Not that Halcro is cheap!) It will force the market to change and maybe we will get more value for money.

You know I have some very good valve simulators on my computer? Saves a whole bunch of hassle! I dont think these guys will go for it though!

Your cables sound like fun, but right now I will have to pass, but will take you up on it soon.

chadeffect January 20, 2008 13:09

Chad,

i dont question your resolution. I know what resolution you have, i know what speakers you have etc... I am simply asking you to please stop with this class D fighting. We respect your choice of class D amplifiers, and expect you to fully understand why we choose not to buy it. We simply do not like class d amplifiers and nothing you or Vince says, will change that.

And please for the love of god, read up on Vinces track record. Do not fall in with the wrong crowd.

Best of luck

PS: And about resolution, i am not kidding on this, we are worlds apart. No offense!

florianw January 20, 2008 08:13

Chadeffect. You are finding there are some very upset luddites out there. They just have to believe their big, expensive toys are worth the penny.

Do you have time to try my easy DIY speaker cable design? It's sound reward is revelatory.

Basically, they are short ultra thin 12 gauge ribbons, perfect for monos. They are sourced from inductors. Audacious, I know, but I insulted cable manufacturers more my making my return ribbons out of aluminum foil. Loosely wrapped in Saran Wrap for insulation and ended in Home Grown spades.

The clarity, depth, width, dynamics, and extension are simply amazing.

Try them. I promise you, you will thank me. They will also be great conversational objects.

muralman1 January 20, 2008 06:29

Hi florian.
The tollerances you speak of are everything. The thickness of the glue dictates the weight of the ribbon etc. I know the original Apogees were not the best made speakers in the world, and that each one was slightly different. The Inductors while using thick wire were kind of hopeless. Loosely turned. These are all things that can be easily addressed now.

Look reality check. No recording studio worth its salt would ever use valve power amps for any monitoring. They use valve mic preamps because of their colourations which they use to create a nice fat sound. But for monitoring? Never. Well maybe in the 1950s 60s or 70s.

You questioned my resolution. You are the one with huge amounts of grainy Sprague Caps and magnan cables with your amps arent you?.

Wow what fun we are having. Best to you florian.

chadeffect January 19, 2008 21:55

Hi Chad,

its nice that you are repeating a lot of what Graz says, but the chages are not as dramatic as you might think. I have here a pair of Caliper Sigs., DIVA Reference, Grand and owned Scintillas also. I tried Big Class A monos, Class A/B hybrids, class D. I also have heard extensively CD players and TT's from Forsell and Goldmund, and there is no way i would put a class D amp on a high resolution pair of Apogees.

There are no laser cut ribbons, the ribbos you have in your Duettas are cut with a rotating knife, controlled by a plotter. The Kapton and Aluminium is the same, the magnets are the same and the glue is identical. You do get more "exact" cuts in the corners, but thats it.

I have two friends close by with rebuilt Duettas (same as yours), one friend with a rebuilt Scintilla, and more with rebuilt Fullranges and DIVA. So believe me, i know the difference between a stock ribbon and Graz CNC cut ones. ;-)
Apogees where built with horrible qualitys back in the day, with huge tollerance on the frame, magnets etc. and a 1mm difference in the cuts make close to no difference. I would recommend that you try your class d amps on one of the higer resolution speakers from Apogee like the Fullrange. I think you might be suprised ^^

Muralman with always agree with you when it comes to Scintillas or Class D amps, i suggest you check out his "track" record on this and other sides, just to make sure you know what you get yourself into.

Best of luck

Flo

florianw January 19, 2008 08:06

Muralman1,
you got it right there. This is the problem. Do you want to hear what IS there or not? Many dont know the difference and they are chasing an "idea" of what the recording is, but in fact dont know what it really is. They know what sounds good to them at the time but thats it.

chadeffect January 19, 2008 01:01

Hi Chadeffect, I am on your side. There was a recent review between a sister amp to the ones I use alongside the Monarchy 250 SE. The only area that the reviewer could find praise for the Monarchy was one of coloration. The Monarchy's effusive warmth made voices sound, "Haunting." Whereas the class D amp gives, "Open, clean and free of artifacts with excellent detail and separation."

The way I read this, a listener has to decide whether they want to hear make believe or reality.

muralman1 January 19, 2008 00:45

Hi Florianw,
I take your point with drivers, but they too have come a long way with modern glues and more powerful magnets computer controlled laser cutting etc.

Valve amps...
I have seen your wonderful set up and promise you that the levels of distortion your speakers are capable of showing are incredible if given the chance. I was shocked when I moved away from big powerful valve amps like audio research/audio valve/Lamm etc at how much grain or lack of speed and control I had got used to. Especially when driving low sensitivety speakers like apogee or magnepan. Let alone the huge amounts of electricity (global warming!)

Valve amps tend to cover up problems in the system in a very nice musical way especially the older ones, but at the same time cover other gems hidden in the recording.

Come over and have a listen. Class D amps do have their problems and some are better than others of course, but with a good one... heaven.

I can only dream of your grands with Halcro monos!

chadeffect January 19, 2008 00:13

"What other technology would you want that is that old or is still relevant in the 21 century?"

How about "ribbons", its from the 20's ;-) I am a tube guy and have not heard any class d amp that i would buy. But its all about tastes!

Cheers mate

florianw January 18, 2008 20:47

Hi Esotheric,
haha banjo! The soundlabs or the new martin logan cls may be the only options for a modern electrostatic speaker. I havent heard the innersound but it uses subs. The quad is more of a headphone!

I am still very confused by these flat earth valve amp lovers. We all know their virtues, but most decent amps are capable of all of that now, plus low noise, bass control, better highs & short signal path. I said to someone on the gon valve technology is over 100 years old. What other technology would you want that is that old or is still relevant in the 21 century?

chadeffect January 17, 2008 17:30

yeah man ,seen the guy .he might have good sound ,but no way he can get any realistic impact . dynamic swings will be very small .and ultimately max spl will suffer badly
i think quads are ok for " pensioner playing banjo" only recordings.
i am no expert ,but a quad V apogee .i think the contest will be ridiculous .i will not be able to live with a quad ,simply not enough dynamics and restricted spl

esotheric January 16, 2008 23:25