I have discovered that the source makes or breaks the system, therefore I put some time into improving the turntable. It started off when I made my own platters out of acrylic and within the platter made cylindrical encasements to hold leadshot. I also replaced the feet with my custom made acrylic tubes again filled with leadshot. I kept using acrylic and leadshot for the tonearm board support and the bearing holding structure to avoid drilling out the original plinth since I was installing the latest vpi hr-x platter weighing in at 33 pounds or thereabouts and the bearing is much wider in diameter than the original bearing. Each time I made an improvement the source became quieter and so much more was coming out. Very happy to say the least. Also need to point out that the turntable is swinging off steel cables, so I like to think of it as the tt being somewhat decoupled from the room. There are some bungie chords as part of the suspension system for the turntable. The whole thing weighs right around 400 pounds some of it as part of the flywheel assembly. I would say the turntable is about 250 pounds. Also on top of the platter rests a weight also composed of you guessed it acrylic and leadshot, well there was this sale and I couldn't resist. Also using the periphery ring. And on top of the cartridge is oh I hate to say it so I'll let you figure it out. How it sounds is all that counts, so I can say enthusiastically it's beautiful. Not the end all, but it never will be in this crazy hobby, gottta love it!!
Far from what I had purchased 2 years ago used here on gon. It's total weight around 430 pounds with custom flywheel assembly.
VPI Industries TNT-5
Another view of the flywheel (from old tnt model) that needs 4 motors (3 motors shown here from previous setup, added motor since then) to spin the 95 lbs. of rotational mass. An intermediary pulley (old flywheel) is used to transfer rotational force to record loading platter. Cannot find belt long enough to span two platters hence the in between pulley.
VPI Industries TNT-5
An old incarnation of this ongoing project. This picture was taken before leadshot donut was attached to underside of platter.
Flywheel VPI
String driven figure 8 to create better trcation
Flywheel VPI
Stand alone Flywheel
Modification Magnetic Repulsion to platter
Since adding leadshot encased in acrylic to underside of platter I needed to lessen load on bearing with this magnetic repulsion system.
VPI Industries Vpi
With tons of lead shot
VPI Another veiw
Lots of lead shot
Modification to Graham 2.2t
Leadshot stuffed into little canister and straw attached to wand of tonearm.
Denon Denon/zu 103r
103r
K&K Phono stage kit
Awesome, totally awesome. One of the best at this price point, highly recommended!
JLTI Phono
Excellent phono, beats my ear 834p and approaches the K&K phono stage
EAR 834P
Awesome phono stage for the money, should be modified with better caps and tubes!
oppo 980
An out right bargain of a cd/dvd player, highly recommended!!
Sony DVP-S9000es
Nice player.
audio experience a2 se
Very nice preamp for the money, was quite surprised.
Sim Audio Moon P-5
Suspended by bungie chords and loaded with lead shot.
Sim Audio Moon W-5
Awesome ss amp, most highly recommended!
Atma-Sphere ma60 mark II
Lights up the room in more than one way WOW!!
Merlin Music Systems VSM-GEN III RC
Suspended by cables to keep floor from resonating
Merlin Music Systems VSM-GEN III RC
Another view of the suspended system
Martin Logan Depth
Suspended with steel cables from ceiling above full range.
Alesis Masterlink 9600
Cd burner with hard drive to pre-record (to do editting or equalization) before transferring over to cd.
Merlin Bbam, Balanced
Makes the speakers sing as they were designed to with this bbam.
System edited: Added pictures of magnetic repusion and loaded tonearm to bring mass up for denon's 103r. It finally works!! Luck played a big role since I didn't have to experiment alot to get the amount of mass just right.
Hi Guys, Another Nutt to Join In. I have learned a little something here Thanks for the great thread. I would like to know if any of my NUTT FRIENDS have any advice for me. I just bought a McIntosh C-2200 pre-amp It uses 4 12AX7A & 4 12AT7A Tubes.. What are the BEST tubes for this Pre-Amp. Thank You for you time. Don
MAJOR UPGRADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you look at the pictures of my speakers, I have those steel coated cables running up and down the side of my speakers about 2" away from the surface of the speaker. Well the upgrade is: I installed acoustical foam so that it rests up against the side of the speaker.WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!! Tighter quieter more focused. Vocals closer to life like!
Added a denon 103r cartridge to the table. Had to add alot of mass to the arm since the cartridge is low compliance. Between the Ear834p and JLTI I went back and forth. Finally decided the jlti was a little more suitable. Then just today the K & K kit assembled came, WOW WOW WOW, this is a match for the 103r. And I haven't even tried the other settings yet! Maybe I won't need to.
OK Pedrillo, I just posted my system with pictures on the "ever evolving" virtual systems audiogon site. I have to thank you because I was to shy to do it before. System name Twin platters rim drive.
Dear Pedrillo, I followed with great interest your safari in VPI tweakland and I can see I am not the only one pushing the envelope so far ! Actualy I completed the double platter rim drive on my TNT and results are amazing. The turntable is only resting on the tungsten carbide balls of Symposium rollerblocks itself on an Ultra Platform. After placing the new superplatter, I used my old TNT III platter as a flywheel, glued a big rubber O ring around , reversed the polarity of the Hurst 300 RPM motor (switch red and black wires) put the platter on the old tripulley subplatter resting on the main platter with 10 pounds weights. The "rim" platter is running CCW via a VPI belt and driving the main superplatter like the new VPI rim drive. And astonishing PRAT, bass and soundstage extention ! Arm is Graham Phantom / 1 arm Jan Allaerts stereo/ 1 arm Lyra Helikon mono Graham Slee Revelation+Elevator/MC 275 tube rolled/Purist Provectus cables/ML Ascent I speakers. Hope this helps!
Speakers are tight, there is no play, this is dense foam, not the squishhy stuff. I got the idea originally from other speakers I had over the years that were sealed cabinet designs, the difference with my application is I don't fully compress the foam by screwing the speakers down tight.
I also have heard (don't know if it's true or not) that Merlin Music is tweaking their speakers by adjusting the amount of pressure or torque used on the screws to secure the speakers to the cabinet or at least they're experimenting with it.
I've seen some very cool and pricey acrylic open baffle designs on the net. Maybe that might be plausible way to go, similar to the Linkwitz Labs Orion with their crossover. I think that would be an awesome DIY project and apparently lot of people feel open baffle is superior to box designs.
I do have vinyl, don't laugh, but I'm using a Technics 1210MK5G "Grandmaster" turntable with an AudioTechnica 150MLX MM cartridge. Music is everywhere, outside the speakers, below the speakers, behind the speakers. Even if most people out here are using megabuck belt drive TT's, they can certainly afford a measly $600 for a Technics MK5G and see what the excitement is all about or buy a tricked out one from KABusa.com. As for phono stages, to my ears, I prefer Manley Labs or Graham Slee Reflex Era Gold at the fraction of the cost. The Graham Slee products provide astonishingly great sound and a bargain price.
Good for you! I would suggest building a cabinet out of multiple materials with different densities using mechanical fasteners, making a tight bond. The joints have to be tight and the idead of the foam acting as casket hmmmm , I would suggest a super tight fit, you don't want that driver to move. I am working on a project myself, a speaker cabinet as described above. Good Luck!! P.S. Can I suggest one thing? Try vinyl not as in material but as in records, get THE SOURCE RIGHT FIRST BEFORE YOU TWEEK DOWNSTREAM! Even if you don't get a walker or continuum, tt are much better sources than anything else unless you have a 40k digital end!
Okay, that works for me. I like acrylic, but it's tough to work with. I've been toying with the idea of using laminated 1" thick bullet proof acrylic to make an equipment rack. It's great stuff for audio! I used to work for a company that used acrylic as safety shields for their machinery. These guys could make perfect clean bends in 1/4" thick acrylic sheets using a press brake.
Anyhow, you're 100% right about pushing the envelope. Tweaking is a big part what the hobby is really all about. Sometimes, I'll be in my groove and not get an idea for months, just listening to my tunes in bliss, then, ephiphany!
You know, I'll tell you, my favorite all time speaker tweak is to cut 1/4" thick dense foam rubber, using a circle cutter and create speaker gaskets for the woofers. I then mount the woofers back in the cabinet, snuggle up to the foam, but not compressing it.
Results? I did this on lots of speakers, most recently my Polks and Tyler acoustics Linbrook signatures. I found the gaskets further decouple the speakers from the cabinet and reduce resonance. The soundstage on both sets of speakers was vastly expanded, and I got significantly greater clarity with very instruments like chimes and bells that were buried in the mix.
Anyhow, I'm making all kinds of cool stuff with this foam including turntable mats. Lots of fun!
Maxheadroom, Yes there are some vibrations transmitted to the 4X4 beams supporting the speakers and subwoofer. These beams are not coupled to the ceiling, only at the ends to my record rack and 2X4's serving as support uprights. Therefore it doesn't amount to much in terms of creating secondary sound waves! Since the 4X4's are dense and sprung they do not conduct that much energy. Also the rubber mats sandwhiching the merlins dampen things. Before the rubbermats I used plywood, WOW what a difference the rubber made like night and day. Bottom line the system is quiet and dark, notes are distinct it is much better than being coupled to the floor IMHO. I think what you did is fine as well, I would encourage experimentation. I always keep in mind: "I don't know how good it can get till I hear a better system", which IMHO always exists and I have a long way to go before I reach the level of some of the members here. Great respect I have for those who came before us and present time who design and setup the equipment that approaches live sound from recordings!! If anything keep in mind no matter how good it sounds it could always be better, believe me!!!Keep pushing the envelope.
Dude, aren't you just transmitting speaker vibration to the ceiling then? What I mean is, when I was a kid, we used to tie a string between two soup cans and hold them taught and talk into them. The vibration of a kid screaming into one can would carry along the string and be heard in the other can at the end of the string. I'm thinking speaker vibrations are travelling the same way up the string to the ceiling. Anyhow, I resolved the floor coloration problem and turntable isolation problem by moving my main system into the basement on concrete.
I never thought of going that route. But it makes sense to me. Actually due to my current setup- primarily how my flywheel motor chassis is built I would probably need to fabricate a bearing mount system for yet another fullsize platter which I wouldn't mind so much. Dave you gave me a brilliant idea thank you. I would install the o-ring around the center platter! Any suggestions for the o-ring. Maybe oversized rubberbands.
Have you seen HW's new rim drive upgrade? If you could find an O-ring large enough to surround a TT platter, you might be able to better the factory set-up by using your second platter as an idler wheel against the primary HRX platter. The HRX platter could then be unweighted and perhaps weight could be added to the idler platter.
Replacing the elastic belt between the two platters with a non-compliant solid coupling should improve speed stability. In addition, HW maintains that a large-diameter idler wheel is much quieter against the platter than a traditional small-diameter, high-speed idler wheel as used in Lencos, Garrards, etc. The new factory rim drive is about half the diameter of a full-sized platter. There might be further reductions in noise at the physical interface going up in diameter and slower in rotation by using a full-sized platter as the rim drive.
Since you are trying to de-couple your speakers from the floor you should really look at getting some Aurio Pro Max bearings (don't bother with the older Aurio 1.2's as they only offer about 30% of what the Maxx's provide) with the optional bearing race on top and optional 5/8" tungsten Carbide ball to go into that cup on top. This will completely decouple your speakers from the floor. I think you would be quite suprised how much your imaging focus improves.
Oh I forgot to mention, I tried two different heights when mounting the magnets. The second height which brought the magnets closer to each other created a rumble in the low frequency which probably was the cogging effect I was expecting from using disc magnets. Hence the next step will be to get the arc segment magnets.
System edited: Added the magnetic repulsion system to the turntable. So far as I can see, it didn't change things too much. That's a good thing though, I feel it has added a tiny bit of noise. Not much, I noticed now with the magnets in place the music sounds more focused, but I think there is (maybe) some loss(very little) of high frequency details due to possibly movement from the magnets crossing each other's field. I was forced to use disc magnets, I used 3/8" round on the platter side and 1/2" on the plinth side, this way I don't have them all lining up at the same time if I had used the same size on both platter and plinth, then I would most definitely have more of a cogging effect. The next step I will be ordering custom magents. I would like to place a ring magnet on the platter/plinth this way it's one smooth surface throughout the ring rather than small disks looking like mosaic. But since the largest a ring magnet comes in is 5" diameter, I need to order magnets in arc segments shapes that when put together will form a ring. A little costly , but I think it is worth it. My intention is to take most of the weight off the bearing ball and thrust plate. Hopefully that will reduce any grinding sound that may be occurring. I considered replacing the thrust plate with tungsten carbide, but suspect that will create more noise than the peek that is in there now. The ball I am quite sure I will change eventually most likely to ceramic. This is a critical area of the turntable and any improvements will bring big results, bigger than improving the preamp or even power amp. This is the beginning of the chain, and whatever you do gets magnified down the road. It's like: when trying to get a road-racing bike to ride faster. You would rather shave weight off the wheels not the frame if you had to choose only one place to lose the weight. Any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
It's interesting to think that adding mass, using an inelastic belt, and increasing the contact area between belt and platter on a belt drive table seems (based on written descriptions of the results) to take the sound closer to that of the best idler drive tt's, none of which have particularly massive platters but most or all of which are profoundly benefited by a high mass, coupled plinth. I would wager that if one were to get belt and idler drive tt's that had been so modified into the same system we would find that they sound very much alike, as well as very good. Most of these insights come from the experimentation of skilled amateurs and reportage made possible by the internet.
Pedrillo, 30 years ago I had a friend who suspended his tt from his ceiling via very long springs. I think the suspension must have been underdamped, but the sound with relatively inexpensive gear was excellent.
Another lesson I learned: adding weight to the platter makes a big difference, highly recommended!!! The bass is so much fuller and the imaging improves. Getting closer to that sound I heard at the mbl room. Just proves that the source is so important.
WOW is all I can say!!! The last addition (the acrylic donut filled with lead-shot and steel washers) brought out so much more from the grooves of the record. My system was already sounding so good but this is so much better!! I am hearing a fuller and thicker sounding bass that comes out effortlessly. Imaging is so much more distinct and realistic and voices and instruments are easier to locate. My lesson that I would like to share, don't judge speakers or power amp till you get the source right!!
System edited: Just about to install this 28.4 pound beast to the underside on my hr-x platter, can't to hear this new set-up! The machining was labor intensive, but good things come to those who wait or have the money to pay others to build it for them.
