Modified dualdrive turntable ends search

by pedrillo on All Out Assault

Description

I have discovered that the source makes or breaks the system, therefore I put some time into improving the turntable. It started off when I made my own platters out of acrylic and within the platter made cylindrical encasements to hold leadshot. I also replaced the feet with my custom made acrylic tubes again filled with leadshot. I kept using acrylic and leadshot for the tonearm board support and the bearing holding structure to avoid drilling out the original plinth since I was installing the latest vpi hr-x platter weighing in at 33 pounds or thereabouts and the bearing is much wider in diameter than the original bearing. Each time I made an improvement the source became quieter and so much more was coming out. Very happy to say the least. Also need to point out that the turntable is swinging off steel cables, so I like to think of it as the tt being somewhat decoupled from the room. There are some bungie chords as part of the suspension system for the turntable. The whole thing weighs right around 400 pounds some of it as part of the flywheel assembly. I would say the turntable is about 250 pounds. Also on top of the platter rests a weight also composed of you guessed it acrylic and leadshot, well there was this sale and I couldn't resist. Also using the periphery ring. And on top of the cartridge is oh I hate to say it so I'll let you figure it out. How it sounds is all that counts, so I can say enthusiastically it's beautiful. Not the end all, but it never will be in this crazy hobby, gottta love it!!
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Components Toggle details

    • VPI Rim Drive HR-X
    Rim Drive
    • VPI Industries TNT-5
    Far from what I had purchased 2 years ago used here on gon. It's total weight around 430 pounds with custom flywheel assembly.
    • VPI Industries TNT-5
    Another view of the flywheel (from old tnt model) that needs 4 motors (3 motors shown here from previous setup, added motor since then) to spin the 95 lbs. of rotational mass. An intermediary pulley (old flywheel) is used to transfer rotational force to record loading platter. Cannot find belt long enough to span two platters hence the in between pulley.
    • VPI Industries TNT-5
    An old incarnation of this ongoing project. This picture was taken before leadshot donut was attached to underside of platter.
    • Flywheel VPI
    String driven figure 8 to create better trcation
    • Flywheel VPI
    Stand alone Flywheel
    • Modification Magnetic Repulsion to platter
    Since adding leadshot encased in acrylic to underside of platter I needed to lessen load on bearing with this magnetic repulsion system.
    • VPI Industries Vpi
    With tons of lead shot
    • VPI Another veiw
    Lots of lead shot
    • Modification to Graham 2.2t
    Leadshot stuffed into little canister and straw attached to wand of tonearm.
    • Denon Denon/zu 103r
    103r
    • K&K Phono stage kit
    Awesome, totally awesome. One of the best at this price point, highly recommended!
    • JLTI Phono
    Excellent phono, beats my ear 834p and approaches the K&K phono stage
    • EAR 834P
    Awesome phono stage for the money, should be modified with better caps and tubes!
    • oppo 980
    An out right bargain of a cd/dvd player, highly recommended!!
    • Sony DVP-S9000es
    Nice player.
    • audio experience a2 se
    Very nice preamp for the money, was quite surprised.
    • Sim Audio Moon P-5
    Suspended by bungie chords and loaded with lead shot.
    • Sim Audio Moon W-5
    Awesome ss amp, most highly recommended!
    • Atma-Sphere ma60 mark II
    Lights up the room in more than one way WOW!!
    • Merlin Music Systems VSM-GEN III RC
    Suspended by cables to keep floor from resonating
    • Merlin Music Systems VSM-GEN III RC
    Another view of the suspended system
    • Martin Logan Depth
    Suspended with steel cables from ceiling above full range.
    • Alesis Masterlink 9600
    Cd burner with hard drive to pre-record (to do editting or equalization) before transferring over to cd.
    • Merlin Bbam, Balanced
    Makes the speakers sing as they were designed to with this bbam.

Comments 109

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I have heard Pedrillo's system and these are my thoughts.
The thing that amazes me is how the system has alot of resolution but without a hint of brightness.
The reproduction of instruments is very natural and alive, especially in the "jazz at a pawnshop" recording.
The strings and brass were so sweet sounding that I didn't want to stop listening. Even the poor recordings that I am familiar with were beautiful to listen to.
The rim drive was a good investment, but we disagree on which way is better. I prefer without the rim drive and peter prefers with the rim drive. For me with the rim drive the system sounds too tight, not relaxed. Forgive me for my unusual interpretation as English is my second language.
It was an enjoyable listening session thank you Peter.

nycabby

Owner
You haven't heard vinyl till you tried rim-drive. It's that good.

pedrillo

Owner
Dgarretson,
Thanks for the kind words.
Yes I am using both to turn the platter, but does it sound better than just using one or the other alone. As for the string drive versus both, yes and by a big margin the dual wins big time. As for the rim drive alone, I haven't tried it.
As for the rim drive, it is VPI and it is meant to be held onto the flywheel by set screws on the sides of the collar that sits below the plate. The collar keeps the rim drive centered when mounted onto the flywheel. I drilled and tapped the pulley head of the flywheel to receive the screws that fasten the rim drive to the flywheel firmly. Just my way of doing things.
Those tiny magnets are glued onto a surface (acrylic) that is then fastened to the plinth and platter so it is removable, I would not risk glueing it directly to the plinth or platter.
New magnets are in the works, I will respond to you directly regarding this matter, anyone else interested please email me directly, if we buy collectively we save a little.
I think with the rim drive and magnet repulsion the tt will be taken to a whole new level.

pedrillo

Hi Peter, are you using both drive systems together, with one drive system pulling the platter with thread, while a separate motor pushes the platter with rim drive? Does this actually sound better than either approach used by itself?

Also, is that the standard VPI fitment that you're using to do the rim drive? I'm unfamiliar with the three-bolt arrangement that fastens your rim drive platter to the flywheel.

Are those many little magnets bored into the plinth and platter, or bonded to the surfaces? If they are thin enough to be bonded to the surfaces, then I might give it a try.

Your TT should be called "The Hercules."

dgarretson

Owner
Now it's quieter as though I hear less of the tt and more of the record.
By the way I only placed the rim drive/flywheel on the plinth and the motor sits on a permanently fixed shelf where all the other motors sit. Since the tt sits on a shelf that is decoupled from the room by being suspended with cables it doesn't feel any vibrations from the motors.

pedrillo

Owner
Well the dual drive system is finally in place and all I can say is for all the vpi owners- I recommend going with the rim drive system.
I am hearing more clarity and immediacy, the bass is tighter and deeper and enveloping. All of a sudden listening is much more pleasurable than before, not that I wasn't enjoying myself before but now it's much more so. On my test record Queen track Dragon attack the individual instruments are easier to hear distinctly.
In a nutshell the music sounds fuller.
My next tweek will be more powerful magnets between the platter and plinth. Anyone interested in getting magnets email me directly.
Pictures of the dual drive will be posted soon.

pedrillo

Jean, I see surgical silk 2-0 from various suppliers on the net in 30" lengths. To try this I need at least 55" & would prefer to avoid splicing. Any suggestions as to source?

Also, why do you locate the motor so far away? More thread length = more elasticity. One of the advantages of my idler system is to keep thread spans short. Thanks, Dave

dgarretson

Check for surgical silk grade 2/O on medical supplies. Highly recommended. Also putting the motor on a separate shelf wall mounted about one meter far from flywheel makes a big step ahead with this VPI . Cheers. Jean.

jloveys

Yeah, the STRING is the THING - Bada BING! Just wait until you try different kinds of string and hear a difference. That really blows my mind. Why would a silk string sound brighter and more clinical over a silk string of the same diameter and tension? Don't know, but others have heard it in my system (yes, I checked the speed and it is the same on both).

Bob

ptmconsulting

Hey Pedrillo, I didn't know you were a Queen fan. That proves there is nothing wrong with you! Queen really rocked! Pompous operatic stuff for sure but man - after ACDC Back in Black I suspect Queen are the best selling band of all time (so far). Perhaps having an astrophysicist helps?

shadorne

Owner
What is wrong with me?
I don't know there are alot of things wrong with me!
Well I finally took Dgarretsons's advice and installed string where I had belts on my tt. Will post pictures in the near future rather then try to explain how I executed this mod, but will say for now it is different.
Wow, better attacks, tighter and deeper bass, more organic sounding.
One of my test tracks Dragon Attack from Queen's album The Game, never sounded like that!

pedrillo

Owner
Daze you are welcome to any time!
Thanks for the compliments, I have some more plans to take it to a higher level. Hopefully it'll be an improvement.

pedrillo

Wow, this is quite an assault on the damping and inertia fronts. Impressive. If you can keep all of these pivots en bearings quiet in operation, I don't see why this deck wouldn't sound as impressive as it looks.

Pedrillo, this might be the contender to these Direct Drive we talked about earlier. I am quite in awe. Sure would like to hear the results one day.

daze

Owner
I am working on a new project, something that has never been done before.
I am enthusiastic to see what results this will yield, I will post pictures and the sonic impressions here when I get it right, if I get it right.
If you don't see any posts regarding this then consider it a dismal failure and I will admit defeat of the first battle.
But I will not surrender, I will keep attempting to achieve the omni mbl sound I desire so much.

pedrillo

Owner
Spencer,
Yes I have been waiting for a local sale of a later edition of the vsm's to show up, but haven't seen any lately.
Peter

pedrillo

Nice amp upgrade, Pedrillo! I'm sure you'll love it.

For your next move, have you thought about upgrading your Merlins to something more recent? They've improved quite a bunch since that version. Cheers,

Spencer

sbank

Looks like a great system It looks like you are well on the way to creating a system buit on careful synergy. Good Job...

brainwater

Owner
Yes the atma sphere is an excellent amp!!
Would like to add the sim preamp is doing a nice job, wondering what would I gain with a preamp upgrade?
I am supposing it would have to be a real good preamp, I am aiming to get the atma mp1, but that won't happen for a while. Meanwhile if some tube preamp comes up at a reasonable price I may jump in.

pedrillo

Congratulations for this wonderful tube amp. !!! If I understand it replaces your Moon SS amp. Vinyl with tubes is a wonder. When burned have a try with NOS tubes, also very rewarding and a lot of fun too .

jloveys

Owner
System edited: Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW and Wow. Just got the atmasphere m60, it hasn't even warmed up yet and right out of the box it sounds great, forget great awesome!! Will post more conclusions as it settles in.

pedrillo

Wow, you guys are advanced. I just buy it and listen to it.

chashmal

Hi Pedrillo, you might be interested to see the new picture of my upgrade, now the rim platter is directly coupled to the Ultra platform via a spare armboard. Speed stability increased. Sound magic! Best regards.

jloveys

Agreed, my point about optimizing BAM does not address the point source vs. omni discussion. The idea was instead a redirect of Peter's point that "the speaker still sounds like a speaker." BAM is integral to VSM performance across the entire frequency range, as BAM provides(in addition to bass boost) dual-bandpass filters to attenuate both extreme LF and extreme HF. The idea is to eliminate distortions within the audio band that out-of-band content will otherwise induce in the drivers. This is a unique design concept, but as the BAM is an active device with op amps, the outcome is very much dependent on execution. With the older BAMs the result is something of a mixed bag-- the benefits of the BAM offset by a somewhat grainy, flat, and lean op amp sound. But with the latest iteration or some internal mods to power and passive components, transparency & naturalism is much improved.

I've heard big MBLs with MBL electronics, and while impressive in terms of scale, I found them brittle and unnatural sounding-- very much overated. The room was not well treated, however, which could be particularly problematic with omni designs.

dgarretson

Isn't the BAM on Merlins for extending low end?

That's fine, but the thing that make phase coherent omnis sound "live" in a unique way has nothing to do with low end extension. Its about how the omnis reproduce the original signal in a more three dimensional manner that enables the original three dimensional waveforms of the live performance be heard in a more convincing manner.

There are many very excellent box designs out there and I own a couple as well, but with all due respect, I have never heard any produce the sound equivalent of a more omnidirectional design like the Ohms and I'm certain also the MBLs, German Physiks, and Duevels as well (and vice versa).

If you like the sound of a more omni design, you have to go with an omni design IMHO.

Maybe some of the largest more directional designs out there can cut it in terms of dynamics, impact, resolution and delivering "meat on the bones" more like a live performance, but I still think it is a different sound in lieu of a more omni-directional dispersion pattern.

mapman

I think Merlin VSM surpasses MBL in realism and most other respects except for room fill, but you have to upgrade or modify your BAM.

dgarretson

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