I must say these mundorf M-lytic AG caps are really amazing, and considering how massive mundorf caps can be, these are still quite small and able to fit where you would like as direct replacements.

I have replaced the DC heater caps in the A08s with them. They were a little bright to begin with, but the extra brightness which gave the impression of more detail, soon opened up down below too. This making for a very open and transparent cap. Not dissimilar to the effect of adding a Silver in oil or a silver gold in oil mundorf cap. Although I would love to see a Silver/gold in oil 10,000uf cap! Any guesses at what the price would be and how many people it would take to lift it?!

chadeffect October 18, 2010 18:10

To add to the confusion enter the Weiss DAC 202... It is good, but how good?

It is a little more up front than the DCS in some ways. Better? I cannot say it is better (yet). It is impressive. But the DCS renders space better for my taste so far.

Lets not go crazy though. I need to let the system settle as there have been a number of changes and each needs to burn in and normalize before we start looking for possible giant killers. I rate the DCS Scarlatti as one of the finest on the planet with the Elgar plus not too far behind it. I would however love to have a single half size box do what my current mulitbox DCS does. Can dreams come true?

chadeffect October 13, 2010 00:15

I look forward to your findings.

muralman1 October 12, 2010 17:08

I thought I would replace the obvious electrolytic caps in the A08s. I went for the mundorf Tube cap (Which is huge) and the M'lytic AG versions which were slightly easier to fit. I will let them settle and see how they sound.

chadeffect October 11, 2010 18:01

Hi Mapman,

I think as I have got closer to the sound I was searching for, and after trying all sorts of options, I got a better sense of what was possible in this particular set up.

It struck me that this little 45 amp could indeed have some of the uber clarity of something like the Linear A from Tom Evans, or that mind numbing resolution from Halcro, but retaining its strengths.

It was pretty close anyway with the new tubes. So adding or replacing the odd cap really did open things up and was simple to do. While I am using fairly expensive caps, its cost is nothing if you compare it to finding an amp of that level. These are always the most satisfying tweaks. Cheap ones!

chadeffect October 02, 2010 09:34

At some point where the sound seems ALMOST perfect, a strategic little tweak is often what delivers the biggest results......

mapman September 30, 2010 16:56

I could not resist seeing if there was any more performance to be squeezed out of my beloved little Yamamoto A08s. So for a while now I have been auditioning component parts in various places in the circuit.

I like the sound of the Yamamoto so I felt the best way to preserve the sound was to experimentwith the caps first. So methodically I added a bypass cap to see what could be gained or lost. If there was something I liked I would try a "better" cap in that position, if they would fit!

Well this little journey has proved fruitful. If you know this amp, you know it makes music, and is very transparent, quiet and articulate. All I can say is with a few cap alterations it is even more so. The added bonus in my set up was wider soundstaging more solid imaging and spooky detail retrieval. You know that kind of imaging where you feel the mouth move as the vocalist sings, hovering just in front of you with a body. Not just the mouth.

In the recording studio this is done with a great compressor (and obviously great mike like a neumann) on the vocal track which brings out the best sense of intimacy by holding the vocal track in place allowing all the nuances through without squashing it too much.

I am not saying the A08s is compressing anything, quite the reverse. It is that kind of retrieval that brings a recording to life. The vitality of this amp is so addictive. I use EML 45 mesh plate tubes which have so much texture and timbre color compared to the 45 tubes I have tried.

The addition of some Mundorf Silver in oil and Mundorf Silver/gold in oil caps have brought that sense out even more. Amazing delicacy and top to bottom naturalness with more defined layering. I could not fit the Dulend VSF 400v copper caps in which is a shame. But I guess as my Avantgarde Trios have Mundorf Silver/gold in oil caps in the crossover, maybe there is some synergy there too.

chadeffect September 30, 2010 16:52

Hi Mapman and Muralman,

I guess the DCS suits my needs for now. It is very fine sounding kit. I am wondering about changing my digital front end soon. It is too expensive to hold onto for too long.

It is a fact that technology moves so fast. Especially digital tech. I will try the new Weiss and see how it compares to SOTA of a few years ago. Worst case I will just hold on to the DCS until it becomes completely obsolete.

My rule of thumb is that the value of such digital kit halves in 3 years and the new kit at half the price sounds as good as the SOTA old kit did. I think you have to balance the reality of this. Having said that DCS is a hard act to follow unless you just want "different".

Muralman I hope your injury gets better real soon, and without too much discomfort. It must be very depressing not being able move as normal. Just remember even the best super heroes suffered but always overcame. Recharge yourself with a good dose of scintilla.

chadeffect July 02, 2010 23:22

As you know, I trust your testimony. It is your system. I find it hard to believe just moving the digital filter out of the mix can rival a dedicated NOS DAC. My Original Scintillas have all the air, warmth that is natural, plus the guts to do all genre of music with panache; all that with a super NOS DAC.

Your speaker cables are too long for me to produce an SC I wanted you to try.

Its rather premature to ask such a question anyway as the very big neck brace rightfully keeps my from looking down.

muralman1 July 02, 2010 20:23

I suspect the upsampling done in the DCS with its Ring DAC architecture produces significantly different results than most oversampling DACs.

Upsampling is neither categorically good or bad in my mind. Like most things, its all in the implementation. DCS's is unique I believe.

mapman July 02, 2010 19:18

Hi Vince,

thanks for the info.

A few people (who have not heard my system) have told me to turn off the upsampling.

I have found when I removed the upsampler and went direct into the DAC for 44.1/16bit playback, it sounded worse. I felt I had lost some important information,dynamics and air. I would even go as far to say the DAC sounds more "digital" without the upsampler.

I have done the A/B tests and DSD upsampling has remarkable warmth and focus leaving untouched 16 bit 44.1 sounding lifeless and a little flat.

It is easy for me to switch between the 2 settings. I have gone to a lot of effort with cabling and power there. It must be the first time in my experience of Hifi where putting something extra in the signal path helps!

Regarding the Apogee I liked my Duetta sigs. As you know I had all new ribbons, external Xovers with mundorf silver/gold in oil caps/Alphacore foil inductors, all silver wired. I had it with twin subs too. I found the Duettas better than the Diva I did with all the same mods and new passive xover.

I could never get the Diva to stop sounding vague. The best apogee I have heard is probably Grazs Synergy (His remake of the scintilla but with much higher sensitivity).

To be honest the Trio kills them all in every respect. The effortless dynamics and clarity leave everything I have heard sounding distant. I had some issues to begin with in integrating the Trios subs. Ribbons are a hard act to follow, but with some work the Trios active subs became more invisible. I am actually having some work done on them soon too. So what this space.

The remarkable freedom of amp technology and power output to drive them has been a joy. I have gone from 1000watts to 1 watt.

My speaker cable length is 3m/channel.

chadeffect July 02, 2010 19:08

Ok, having told you what difference the diode makes in NOS DACs, I realized I didn't give you a link to the exact diode.

The Duetta was a fine Apogee. The FR and Scintilla are leagues ahead in all categories. I know this because I have owned several. Class D properly fed into the Scintilla is on heaven's wings.

I only say this because now you have horns. This is on even a higher level of sensitivity. Find an Audio Note DAC, and replace the diodes. You will thank me.

Oh, how long are your SCs?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/22174/STMICROELECTRONICS/BYW80200.html

muralman1 July 02, 2010 02:56

Hi Chad, I once had a neighbor who was cycling through quite a number of OTL amps, and tubes. Seeing you are doing the right thing in choosing OTL, I wish I had taken notes back then for you.

Talking about OTL honing, I have a tragic story to tell. I have another neighbor who is a serious student of all that is OTL. He is an Audio Note specialist. His preamp is one of 5 ever made. His amps are one of the highest in the AN line.

One day, my former dentist asked me if I would meet him there. I agreed, always liking to hear music. At the time the owner had his preamp out, and a very good loner was in it's place.

The owner drew our attention to two very big bottles on the borrowed preamp. He said those are his, and are, "un-attainables." He had taken them off his own preamp in service for safe keeping.

We were listening to very good music. Along with the music was a constant whine. The owner blamed the preamp, the one with his $800 tubes.

My dentist, being a hyper sort of guy, did one of the craziest things I have seen done since one of my visiting employees cranked the volume to full max. Without any warning, the dentist lurched forward, and cranked a bias knob to max...... POW!!!!

On another note, a poster above strongly suggested you switch your over/up sampler for a no sampler. In my experience, he is absolutely correct. As you know, one has to be very careful what you feed a class D amp. I learned long ago, NOS players and DACs sound much more like real music.

I have an Audio Note DAC. Audio Note makes it plainly clear what their goal is. They want the end result to be a lyrically pleasant music maker.

All Audio Note DACs have a digital board. Feeding that, they provide a digital supply board. On that board there are four diodes. These diodes choke aspects of the signal. One only needs to replace it with a modern super fast recovery diode, and watch the full majesty of the music to come forward. Everything benefits. Highs are extended, dynamic swings duly produced, and attack as good as it gets.

I hope you try that out. It doesn't take a real expensive DAC to bring out the magic.

Vince

muralman1 July 02, 2010 02:29

Hi Acresverde and Jason,

with regard to the Trio and impedance spike in the tweeter, I assumed this was why Avantgarde added the CDC system to the crossover.

I was under the impression this eased the way the amp saw the impedance plot, stopping some amps sounding bright on the Trio and making it compatible with a wider range of amplifiers.

chadeffect June 27, 2010 09:37

Hi Acresverde
Yes I agree with you about having to audition each amplifier your self with your speakers, I did not try the Atma-Sphere M60 with the Avantgarde Duo and I expect they are a different class of amplifier to the Atma-sphere S30 Mk1 I auditioned.
Don`t be put off by output transformers either in the signal path as some would say this degrades the sound, I have not found this the case when very good quality output transformers & Interstage transformers are used.

Hi Chad
Yes I can understand you liking the 45 amplifier with the Avantgarde speakers it was one of my favorite matchings as well, the 45 is for refinement and tonal qualities in music playback.
Thanks Jason.

jasonparmenter June 26, 2010 20:15

Just my 2 cents. I've been using Atma M60s on Duos since 2000 with great results. Most noteworhty of all are the constant stream of comments that express suprise at the lack of shoutiness or brightness that many anticipated would be present in the treble region (negative preconceptions about certain aspects of horn performance are endemic in my neck of the woods too). A couple of industry people (among them "our" Duke) have been in my living room and have seemed to appreciate what this combo can do (I don't think they're just being nice). I would encourage anyone to try the OTL/Avantgarde pairing without first writing it off summarily as well as OTLs and horns in general. Interestingly, Ralph Karsten has made mention in another thread that, specifically, the Trio has a XOver anomaly that introduces a rather sharp impedance spike at the tweeter level which, apparently, negatively impacts the sonic performance of his amps with this particular speaker.

acresverde June 26, 2010 15:09

HI Jason,
I am using the Avantgarde active subs. Not the Bass horn. The Yamamoto is driving Tweeter/mid/mid bass horns. The active bass takes the speaker level feed from the amp. The same way as the DUO and UNO speakers do. I think the subs are 500w a channel.

I am losing a little bite or impact around the mid bass horn/ sub (90hz or so), although the bass is very nice and deep with lots of texture.

In a way the more impact I had in the bottom before with 300b amps seems a bit hyped now. Luckily the trio has impact to spare. I am told there is a tweak for the A08s to give it more poise in the bottom registers.

But the sound is wide and effortless, so I dont feel the Yamamoto is struggling to drive the speaker. It is just a different presentation. A very addictive sound with the finest highs and mids I have had.

I was wondering about an OTL but was struggling to find one to try.

chadeffect June 26, 2010 13:34

Hi Mapman
I tried the Atma-sphere 30 watt OTL on the Avantgardes speakers and it was not a good match, sounded bright in the treble region.
A 45 Single Ended Triode amplifier like the Yamamoto was a better match to the Uno and Duo models, even when you take in to account the 2 watt versus the 30 watt rating of the OTL.
Thanks Jason.

jasonparmenter June 26, 2010 07:11

Hi Chad, are you using subs, or are you talking about the big horn?

muralman1 June 25, 2010 22:06

System edited: The Yamamoto A08s pictured with the Emission Labs mesh plated 45 tube driving the Trio

chadeffect June 22, 2010 09:47

Hi Mapman,

there is something going on with some of the tube amps I have tried. Even if in theory they shouldnt be good.

I think I am in the world of having to give up something one way or another though. Either I get ease of use, no noise, less distortion, or or I get a sense of an event and insight into a performance but with some issues.

For all the reasons I went away from tube amps(although at the time very powerful ones), these simple small tube amps do offer something important. An emotional communication.

I have had the technical excellences and extremely fine sound from SS. My bar of measurement being the Halcro DM38/58. While they can make music lit and glorious so can the A08s. Ok the A08s has no power, but if you dont need it then thats a lot of amp. Maybe it doesnt quite have that very very last once of detail in the tails when compared to the Dm series. That is a "maybe" though!

Is my hope of finding the perfect amp a folly? Who knows what is next on the list? The red wine audio battery powered amp is meant to be good too. But it will not connect to my subs unless there is a fix for the electrical issues.

chadeffect June 17, 2010 15:58

Hmm, I think what he was indicating is that the Trios are not designed to work optimally with tube amps, including his, due to the impedance variation at various frequencies. The result would be less than ideal tonal balance top to bottom.

Use of a sub would likely help compensate.

Still, I'm wondering if you have tried and good lower power Class A SS amps with those? I'm thinking that you might find SS to be the best inherent match and not have to deal with any tubes in the power amp.

mapman June 16, 2010 16:49

Hi Mapman,
I saw Ralphs comments. I tried to find one of his amps to try. I was hoping not to find myself loving a hot set of amps that needed lots of space and a bucket load of tubes.

Unfortunately I do not use the AG active Bass horns,much as I would like to, but I use their active subs. I didnt have the extra $40k or the space.

I have tried all sorts on the Trio so far. Power has not seemed a major issue so far. I have had 500 watts down to 1.4 watts per channel amps.

The most powerful sounding amp was 16 watts! In fact the BC was quite polite and withdrawn by comparison. To be honest the 1.4 watts is kicking out some serious volume without any sign of strain. Maybe the bass is not as explosive as I have heard, but not bad and probably better tonally by any standard. It is a very refined amp.

Always best to try and use your ears I guess. I will let things settle for a while.

chadeffect June 16, 2010 16:28

Chad,

Ralph Karsten (Atmasphere) pointed out on the big horn thread going that Trios are designed to work best with SS amps in that the crossover implementation results in significant impedance variations from driver to driver:

"(FWIW, the Trio is only horn speaker I know of where the designer intended it to be used with transistors. This is reflected in the crossover design, or lack of it, which consists of capacitors to roll off low frequencies for each driver. This results in an impedance curve that is nearly 19 ohms in the bass horn, but only about 4 ohms at the tweeter frequencies, even though the individual drivers are all nearly the same impedance. No low power tube amp is going to drive this right as the speaker is what I call a Voltage Paradigm technology, whereas most low power tube amps and other horns are Power Paradigm technology. see http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html for more info.)"

I'm wondering are you hearing this with the various tube amps versus say your original BC ref 1000?

mapman June 15, 2010 20:58

The EML 45 mesh plate.

I plugged in the new mesh plated EML 45s. My first observation was just how fast it made the Yamamoto amp sound. Clean,fast,extended.

It has a very pure and rich timbre presentation. When I say rich I dont mean fat or thick. I mean natural colors with a hint of sweetness and beauty.

I wouldnt say it has the resonant gyt wrenching weight of a 300b like the KR way down deep in the bass. But on the Trio sometimes this could be overwhelming even if it was fun.

The 45 draws less attention to the thump part of bass drums on some rock or electronic recordings than the KR or even the audio note. Thats not to say it doesnt have dynamics or bass weight. It is just that its focus leans more to the midband and lower midband. Maybe it lacks some air in the bass or headroom compared to the 300b?

The KRs 300b bass could be on the etched side. I found the KR lost its way in the treble as did the audio note to a lesser degree. The KR 300b amp had a slight darkening like old Levinson kit used to have. The audio note 300b is more romantic and a greatly enjoyable listen.

The Yamamoto with the mesh plate is beautiful to listen to. Will 1.4 watts a channel be enough for me in the end? The speakers dont sound under powered. Maybe a little more air in the bass would be the only thing I could say I miss slightly. It could be a running in issue, or set up issue though.

Of all the amps I have tried so far it is way up there. It is lit like the Halcro. It is natural like the Halcro but with more soul.

chadeffect June 15, 2010 12:04