Vick ~ one other thing, I'd recommend you read, well, study is more like it, Dr. Floyd Toole's book on room acoustics and the physics thereof. Highly recommended.

kevinzoe December 22, 2011 02:27

Vick,
You raise a good point about trying to find resources to help you understand the acoustical measurements. Unfortunately they aren't too abundant, or at least what I could find. You might try Googling the following: Acoustic Measurement Standards for Stereo Listening Room
Written by Jeff Hedback and Nyal Mellor.

Regarding GIK, yes they can be helpful. I have several of their products that I'm weaning out of the acoustical goodie bag of tricks I own. While their Tri~Traps product is triangular shaped to fit snugly into a corner, you are better off pulling it away from the wall several inches (I use between 6 & 8 inch air gaps) to extend its absorption properties to lower frequencies. They are resistive~type absorbers that work best where sound particle velocity is at its maximum which is at the 25% point of a frequency's wavelength. So for a 500 Hz frequency, the air space should be just over 6 inches [ 1130 / 500 * 12 * 0.25 ]. Using your measuring tool, you should be able to measure before and after effects of varying the air space depth.

Having said all that, I might imagine that bass modal peaks aren't too bad given your large L~shaped room, windows, and openings to other parts of your home that allow bass to be "siphoned off." i would take acoustical measurments first before placing any order with GIK to see if and what the frequency problems are. If the problems lay in the low bass region ( less than 100 Hz) then bass traps from GIK won't cut it; you would need several of them to make for a very thick trap to do much good which quickly imposes itself on floor space and visually too. A better approach would be to use multiple subwoofers and parametric EQ. A broadband trap on the left wall first reflection point is still a good idea for the middle and higher frequencies to attenuate them akin to your right wall being farther away than the left wall.

Good luck and keep us posted.

kevinzoe December 22, 2011 02:02

Thanks Kevinzoe for the advice and kind remarks.

On the advice of Jonathan at Chambers Audio, I have purchased a Phonic PAA3 acoustic measurement tool and intend to run an XLR cable from this to each channel of the preamp and generate pink noise and take measurements - however I am a complete novice so I will need help at some point to interpret the data. Do you have suggestions for any particular software and also for any guide in the internet so that a novice like me can interpret the data? The Phonic PAA3 has its own software and I expect that this will suffice.

Good advice on the room treatment. I have been in touch with GIK Acoustic who have been incredibly helpful - they also suggested a panel directly to the side of the left speaker and also tri traps for the left front corner and right front corner. I am awaiting to hear back from them with a final proposal but I may send them some readings to further help the analysis. If only I had a dedicated room as many members do on this forum but not a realistic possibility where I live. It remains however a frustration as I know this gear could be producing much better results in a more appropriate room.

I have also been suffering from hum and RFI in the vinyl rig and Whest Audio are being very helpful in trying to help resolve this for me but it is maddening.

vicks7 December 19, 2011 13:46

Vick,
Regarding your interest in room treatment as the next 'phase' in search of sonic euphoria, do you own an acoustical measurement tool? For Windows, tools such as Dayton Audio OmniMic or XTZ are great at measuring what your ears are hearing. I found the tool invaluable, especially when I evaluated 99 (yes, you read that right) candidate locations for my two subwoofers.

With your right speaker being so far away from a side wall, have you considered thick absorption on your left wall to emulate the same kind of effect for your right speaker? You don't want an early reflection off the left wall and no reflection or very later reflection from the right wall.

Again, fabulous gear! Keep your day job! ;)

kevinzoe December 19, 2011 02:55

Thanks Kevinzoe. Room is an l-shape but speakers are on a long wall of about 25 feet and the length of the room is over 25 feet so there is even more space behind listening position then in front of it.

Unfortunately I am forced in to having speakers to left side of room so left speaker is close to the left wall whereas right speaker is not near a wall as room opens out for a further 12 feet to right of speaker. There is a lot of work to be done with acoustic treatment to deal with this speaker position - it will help that the mmtwos can also be dialled in and this is my next project after the speakers have a few hundred hours on them.

I am convinced that with more tweaking I can start to realise the full potential of the components I have amassed over the years. I expect that once the Maggiore 100s arrive this will also have a significant effect - increased power should lead to more grip although the mmtwos do not need huge power given the powered subwoofers. But the Maggiore are much more than just an increase over power when comparing to the model 88s. I was in awe when I demoed the mock- up version of the Maggiore - the size and depth of soundstage was huge.

I have just returned from the States and picked up a Talea 1st generation (from Mike Lavigne - a real gentleman to deal with) and also an Ortofon A90 from Jonathan at Chambers Audio - another gent. It will be interesting to add this as a second arm on the Raven AC and see how it compares to the Raven 10.5 arm with an Ortofon Black Credenza.

Bought a load of new CDs when in the States - listening to Jarrett Rio - and things are sounding good but there is a lot still to do - but it is what makes this hobby so much fun and a drain on the wallet!

vicks7 December 18, 2011 19:15

Vic - Fabulous gear! All top notch stuff. Just out of curiosity, what size room are the speakers in as I might imagine they'd likely benefit from having room around them to 'breath' so to speak. I've not heard the Evolution Acoustics speakers but they look impressive.

kevinzoe December 17, 2011 02:04

System edited: I have updated my system photo following the introduction of my new Evolution Acoustics MMtwo speakers. System Edit: I have replaced my Bent Audio Tap-X Passive Preamp with an Audiopax Model 5 Special Edition. Wonderful synergy with the Audiopax Model 88 Monoblocks. System is sounding fantastic.

vicks7 December 10, 2011 21:30

Thanks Charles. Just finished listening to Musica Nuda - Petra Magoni and Ferruccio Spinetti. Final track is a wonderful version of Imagine - speakers are sounding so crystal clear and natural - really pleased to have got to this point with my system.

vicks7 December 04, 2011 23:58

Hi,
I`ve heard the Evolution speakers at CES 2010 and this year at RMAF, yes show conditions but they did sound very well. I find the Audiopax approach to higher power with a true SET amplifier very clever. This combination must be so pure and natural-realistic. Congratulations on a well thought out system.
Charles

charles1dad December 04, 2011 22:57

System edited: System edit: Replaced ASI Tango with Evolution Acoustics MMTwo

vicks7 December 04, 2011 22:51

Thanks Charles and Dev.

Very early days but the MMtwos do quite a few things better. IMHO resolution is far superior - I very much like the ribbon tweeter - phenomenal detail. The midrange is also fuller and more realistic particularly on piano and wood instruments. Played Brian Bromberg Wood and it sounded the best I have ever heard this CD. As many others have said the speakers disappear - imaging left to right front to back is wonderful. When we put the speakers together yesterday which effectively involves locking a module consisting of two ceramic mid range drivers and ribbon tweeter on top of a separate woofer module, I wondered it if really could sing as one speaker and it really does - the coherence of this speaker is phenomenal - the bass integrates with the rest of the speaker in a seamless way but at the same time does not overpower the presentation.

I will post more thoughts when I have been able to process what I am hearing but it truly is a remarkable speaker in my humble opinion. I have been listening non-stop all day today. Speakers also have endless adjustment through controls on the back of the speakers - bass filter, bass level, bass quality, bass extension, tweeter level and a rumble filter. I am still listening on factory default settings until they settle down. It was very obvious once I started listening today that my system is now in another league.

The speakers are bigger particularly front to back but they still fit well into the space. I currently have them about nine feet apart and nine feet from listening position. I will update the system photo in the next few days.

Thanks for the tip on the Minus k - very interested in improving the isolation on the table. I am still a little reluctant though given the price but still considering.

The new Maggiores are beasts - quite large amps when I demoed them in my home. I am waiting for the final version to arrive hopefully in next few weeks. A SET with 100w Class A. I hope word gets out as the guys at Audiopax deserve the recognition - Eduardo de Lima the creator is a true genius.

vicks7 December 04, 2011 22:13

Vicks7,
What do the Evolution speakers improve beyond the ASI Tangos? The new Audiopax seems to be a beast.
Best Regards,
Charles

charles1dad December 04, 2011 20:07

Hi I read you got some new speakers, congrats! Did you place them where your exsisting ones are in the pic? Aren't they allot larger?

Minus K is the way to go for your TW, when doing such look at only placing your table on it and not your motor. You will need to have something made for under your motor so to bring it up to the same level.

You will most defiantly be very happy if you do this.

dev December 04, 2011 19:40

Thanks Jfrech.

I am currently considering the many options available on isolation platforms.

I particularly like the idea of the Minus-k but it would be too expensive in my view to justify any potential gains so I am considering a Silent Running Audio or an AudiAV and will pull the trigger soon on one of these.

vicks7 November 20, 2011 21:57

HI congrats on a great system. I especially admire the vinyl front end. I listen to vinyl about 90% of the time. But good digital is just plain good to.

Curious, you ever thought about a isolation platform under your TW Acoustic table?

jfrech November 20, 2011 14:17

Thanks very much Mjcmt for the kind words.

System is sounding great, both vinyl and digital, (I probably split my time equally between the two formats) although there are some issues given the non-symmetrical room set up, mainly in the depth of soundstage and imaging. My room opens out to the right of the right speaker whereas the left speaker is much closer to the left wall. My apartment is rented so I am trying to research the most cost effective way of remedying this non-symmetrical room set up with acoustic room treatment.

I have two more changes coming up in the next 3-4 months in terms of amplification (moving to the bigger brothers - the Audiopax Maggiore 100 which are superb based on my audition in Sao Paulo) and possibly new speakers (MMTwos) and then I am done (hopefully)!

vicks7 November 20, 2011 12:25

Boy oh boy! It doesn't get much better than this system. I dream of owning a truly reference sound system. You are to be commended on this non-mainsteam reference system.

mjcmt November 20, 2011 01:13

System Edit: Over the last several months, I have added a TW Acustic Raven AC turntable with Raven 10.5 arm and Ortofon Black Credenza cartridge and a Whest Audio Phono Reference Phonostage. Vinyl is sounding fantastic.

vicks7 November 19, 2011 20:16

System Edit: Updated System photo.

I would appreciate advice from you all on room treatment/set up.

My room is an L shape with the speakers on a long wall but with the left speaker close to a wall - actually ceiling to floor glass balcony doors. In the photo above you can see these covered by a thin white curtain.

Left speaker is about 15 inches from the left wall. Right speaker has no side wall close to it - it is open to the right side of the speaker for 11 feet.

Speakers are about 22 inches in front of the front wall. Speakers are about 8 feet apart, slightly towed in.

Distance from speakers to listening position is about 10 feet. Room continues for a further 17 feet behind the listening position.

Any thoughts on what I can do to improve the set up. I have a rug as you can see in the photo.

Thanks

James

vicks7 March 12, 2011 01:23

Thanks Charles1dad. I am very pleased. The speakers excel at many things, including acoustic guitar - I was listening to John Mclaughlin last night (Live at the Royal Albert Hall) and it sounded incredibly realistic and musical.

vicks7 February 28, 2011 18:25

System Edit: I updated my Audiopax Model 88 to the most recent model (the Model 88 A3) and it has provided a remarkable improvement over the original amplifiers.
System Edit: Purchased a Bent Audio Tap-X preamp and now alternate between using the APL NWO direct to the amps or through the Tap-X. Still deciding which I prefer!

vicks7 February 14, 2011 11:58

Vicks7,
You have a very fine system, I`m deep into jazz myself and with your system it must sound devine.

charles1dad February 13, 2011 15:47

I am still very happy with the Tangos although I still listen to the Zus which I like very much. I don't understand why Zu has stopped producing these speakers. I have not gone as far as the resonators other than the ones in the base of the speakers but I am using Frank's liveline speaker cable which I also find to be excellent.

The specs on the Audiopax are as follows:

Max. Power Output: 30W RMS at 1kHz into 8 ohms
Frequency response: 14Hz to 90kHz (-3dB)
Signal to noise ratio: > 90 dB (A weighted) ref. 30W
Gain: 18dB
Input impedance: 215 Kohms
Output impedance: 3.7 ohms

vicks7 September 22, 2010 21:11

Are you still happy with the Tangos 1 year later? They are certainly beautiful, and Srajan Ebaen of Six Moons uses them as his reference. Have you also delved into the mystical world of Frank Tchang's resonators?

What are the specs on the amps you're using?

timmyb August 11, 2010 22:25

System Edit: Replaced the Modwright Sony CD/SACD Player with the APL modded Esoteric X-01 CD/SACD Player and I have also added the Acoustic System International Tango R Loudspeakers and cabling. I have also removed the Melody preamp with the APL direct to the Audiopax amplifiers. The system sounds fantastic. I love the Zu speakers but the Tango speakers are, IMHO, superior - harmonics, treble, bass. Very realistic and detailed speakers but also very musical. I could not be happier.

vicks7 July 29, 2009 18:37