I don't miss the subs with the Apogees 90% of the time, they were not getting much of a workout in the music system. I was only using them for the bottom octave or so...20-40hz. (hardly any of my music (except newage) goes below 30hz)
The Duettas have no problem going to 27hz on their own, although this puts a little more strain on my Rogue amps.
Computer audio is new to me...so far my Kinergetics transport/Monarchy tube DAC, have the edge over my limited in scope computer transport setup, which is only a cheap usb-digital conversion...which also uses the Monarcy DAC.
The computer sounds nearly as good, but does not have the same soundstage?...kinda flat for some reason. I am doing a lot of reading over at the Audioasylum (PC-audio forum) on the subject.
I plan on upgrading my tube amps to something in the 200 watt range latter this year, not sure what to go with just yet. I like the Rogue amps just fine, but I could use a little more power at this point.
When I bought the Rogue amps I still had my Krell amp, and assorted others. The original intent was to biamp the Duettas, plus a pair of subwoofers (so triamp). I did that in several arrangements, and none took me to another level like I had hoped.
I am back to a, "two systems in one room approach"....all solid state, and cones, plus subwoofers for homtheater....all tubes and planers for music, and no subwoofers.
So far, or at least this year...computer audio transport has my interest. I'm playing with Windows-7 beta, and several Linux operating systems for a couple of months.
I also replaced my Sunfire Theatergrand prepro, with an Onkyo 805 receiver in the hometheater, and went to full 7.4 in that system (I really like the room correction software in the Onkyo!...I may get the stand alone version, for my two channel system?)
Other than that, I've been in a good place for a couple of years now.
I agree, shipping to the U.S. would be very costly on those. On top of that, Apogees in general, are more costly to buy across the pond....supply and demand I guess?
Now that Apogee is back in biz (Graz now owns Apogee)...older trashed pairs are going to be harder to come by....the dealer/installers (two in the USA)...will buy any, and all they can find...you need to move fast!
I do watch for the Scintillas, and all the other 3-ways...a trashed pair, or even...not so trashed pair would do. I missed a pair of Scintillas in Florida ($1,000) around a year ago.
I check "Craigslist" daily. I did find my MiniGrands there!
Thank you. That Krell was sold not long ago, it was part of a Krell/Apogee multichannel system...the other Krell, and extra Apogees, sold long before.
I had planed to use the Krell as a bass panel amp, in a Apogee speaker upgrade, (the Diva, Fullrange...or any other I could find)...and run tubes on the top end.
After a couple of years looking...I changed my mind. I'm going to stay with the toys I have.
I did pick up another pair of Apogees (MiniGrands) last summer...so, I may give multichannel another whirl, down the road?
Hi GD, yes...I still enjoy them every day. I'm a little short on room, and amps, at the moment...I only use one pair of Apogees at a time. I also have my VMPS hometheater speaker system in my room...that makes for two system running all the time (can't swing three).
I'm driving the Apogees with Rogue Audio tube amps, and the passive subwoofers with an Onkyo M-504.
Of course the MiniGrands have their own passive subs. I use a pair of large VMPS passive subs with the Duettas.
My VMPS Supertower/R's are old school (non-hybrid). I bought them new, around 10 years ago. I have hung on to them for two reasons 1. They are not worth much on the used market...($1,000 or so?) 2. I could never find a better "Rock" speaker to replace them with, at anywhere near their used value...so, why sell?
In brief, the Supertowers would make "any dipole" on the face of the earth, whimper in the corner...like a scared kid...or, at least any non-pro dipole.
As hifi speakers...they are not even close to the Apogee MiniGrands in their ability to dig deep into the recording.
I have listened to most of the newer VMPS hybrids at my local VMPS dealer...they sound more "Apogee like"....very nice choice for anyone needing a hybrid. (because of setup issues in smaller rooms).
Which Apogee to buy used is a good question, the answer would be based on a few other questions. How much will you spend?, how large is your room?, do you want a fullrange model?, would a hybrid model be ok?, are you willing to spend a good chunk of cash for rebuild when the time comes?...(and it will, no escape there!)...the bass panels are damped by foam. When the old foam breaks down you get BUZZ (you know about that one).
In all, I count 26 models in Apogees past...bookshelf, hybrids, full planer/ribbon.
Non-hybrid and fullrange...the Duettas are the smallest model. Smaller than the Duettas, but not fullrange, are the Caliper and the Stage. If you look at my system pics you can get an idea of the size difference between the Stage (of course my Stages are on top of their subwoofers) and the Duetta....around 1/2. The Caliper would fit in between these two in size.
One bright note....I listened to a pair of well thought of speakers ($17,000...I won't mention the name) a good while back. They were not better than my Duetta Signatures, they were very good...different....maybe as good? I suspect my Duetta Sigs can hang with most anything out there at the $15,000 and under price range.
A dealer rebuilt pair of Duetta Sigs....less than $5,000 if you do it right.
Well, I've owned the Duetta Signatures for a few years, the MiniGrand for only a month...(two weeks of that, not properly setup).
I have now moved the Duetta out of the system, and installed the MG's in their place....a chance to shine, and show off their best.
Something interesting: When I had both speaker systems setup for the first time, and played the Stages...for the first time....the Duetta was the clear winner to my ear.
However, after playing the MG's for a few days I started hearing the Stage magic,and... that they were "A LOT" better sounding than I'd first thought.
I did this switch, back and fourth (each speaker system playing around 3 days)...and each time the speaker I had been listening to for those 3 days sounded like the winner. I'm thinking that the ear needs a short time to adjust to the new sound.
I'm finding that the two speaker systems sound "very alike"... and, "nothing alike"
I agree with you...the Stages midrange reproduction is nothing short of fantastic when setup properly. (they are a "clear" winner there).
Btw...you have owned many Apogees. Which models that you have listened to in you home, better the Stage in midrange reproduction?....I'll guess the Scintilla for one?
Thanks, something new to play with, they seem to enjoy my tube amps just fine. I've managed to get the subwoofers blending nicely today...I had read it was hard to do?
Ya, I plod along pretty slowly in just about every facet of life...I'm afraid of heights so my mountains are only big hills, but the hills are alive with music.
Your welcome Jeff, thank for peaking at my system also. Yep, reflections are minimized...great bass potential is maximized.
I was going to move up in the Apogee line this year (Apogee Diva), however... my Duetta Sigs are now sounding so good I've desided to stay put with these and upgrade my tube amps only.
System edited: Updated system pic's. Two systems...Apogee Duetta Signatures and tubes for two channel, VMPS in the rear for hometheater....works for me.
Yes, the blinds are up...I'm going to upload new pic's one of these days.
I measured each window very carefully and had blinds made that fit inside the 3" deep window sills...black. Still, with the two large windows and 8' door-wall some light does get in...not enough that I can't watch TV or a movie in the day time though.
The bigger problem is that directly across from the 8' door-wall is another 8' opening which leads into the rest of the house...more light spill there than the windows.
In hind-sight I should have installed a large pocket door at that opening...I did build double walls so could have done that without a problem.
I could install some bi-folds there, kicking it around for a while now....I'm a slow thinker.
The projector is ceiling mounted at 16' from wall...gives me about 100 inch picture.
I placed a picture of the unfinished room. You can see the elbow with wires (3 inch pvc pipe behind drywall), you never know when you may need to snake more wires.
I agree, my center sub is my LFE sub, the other two are tuned for music. My local Vmps dealer will be by Wednesday to install (new) much improved 15 inchers in the supertowers. Bass should improve by a high factor I'm told.
Slappy
Thanks buddy, my system (just like my cars) are old high mileage...250,000 on the 92 chevy truck and almost that on the 92 Merc.
I have looked at your system many times, (LUST) is a word that comes to mind!! As a matter of fact, I'm looking forward to the update you talked about regarding your system on your system thread.
RE: subs
I don't use them for most two-channel music because the output from my Duetta Sig's does not begin to drop off untill 27hz. in my room. I do turn them on for many of the new-age types of music...some of this music contains output even at the limits of my subs (17hz) and can produce room shudder that is very enjoyable (at least to me).
I use a small paradigm x-over on the large supertowers and the center sub is hooked into my pro-pro's LFE output. The supertowers are powered by an Onkyo M-504 which has large power meters as it's front, they only slightly twitch on most music so I don't bother.
My room is large dedicated so I've had no problem with the Apogee/sub blend. No WAF at all so can be moved anywhere...which is most important when setting up a sub (subs). Also, I find that two or more subs are much better than one for blending.
That said: My room is new and has not been treated/tweaked, the only placement of components locked-in at this point are the Duetta sig's and the rear speakers.
I look forward to the update regarding your system Gallant
System edited: 90% done, still need to add a screen for the projector and some room tweaks/treatments. The pictures were taken a while back but I had some injury from a fall (long story). I should be able to complete the room in about another month or so will update to the final pic's then. Dave
Rooms way to big...painting today and my neck and back are killin me already after 4 hours. The drywall was easier than this mess!
Anyway, my room is 25'X 23'X 9' in it's finished state. My system will not be setup exactly like the pictures I have posted of my un-finished room but will be close so I can at least give an idea as most of the changes are component placement and sub placement.
The system is on the 25' wall and the D. Sig's are the main speakers. These are 5 feet out from the wall and around 8 feet from each side wall. The screen will be wall mounted so five feet set-back from the mains...same as in my pic's.
My seat is at around 11 feet from the mains so about 16 feet from the 100 inch screen. I will have a sub on each corner of the 25' wall (about 3 feet away from the corner) and the third sub will be center front or maybe in the rear of the room?...will deside after I get the other two dialed in.
They came and measured for the carpet this morning...said it would be a three week wait, BUMMER...all my gear is stuffed in on of the bedrooms.
Apogee speakers (at least the non hy-bred's) can be somewhat of a pain to setup, this is a speaker design that gives meaning to "a little gives or takes a lot". These speakers are truly a full-range design that will not (IMO) work well in small/med-small rooms.
At this time, mine are 58" out and 78" from side walls with around 8' spread between the mrt ribbons and no toe-in. Bass response is very smooth with only about 1db difference between all fqz's down to 31.5hz were it picks up 3db. I have one Vmps passive sub hooked into my pre-pro's sub output for movie LFE only and two Vmps subs with outboard active X-over for 35hz down to below 20hz. Of course all this will change with sheet-rock/carpet/room treatments ect.
I did think about that type of wall construction, I guess I could still think about it. I did stagger-stud an inside wall which would give me 3-wall construction if I went with the channel idea?, "food for thought".
The floor, I live in Michigan so cement floor was something I did not want in the winter. I wanted a wood floor that was as solid to the feel (or jump) as cement floor would be, but with warmth. The floor is only raised 1.5 inches above the cement and has no flex between studs because of the 1.5 inch insolation panels between them. The .75 inch flooring sheets laid down over this like a big puzzle (a smarter person than me) helped me figure this out, the last piece needed a little grease on the tung, and the groove side...glue&screw only. As far as acoustic benifit, I'll never really know...but it's a darn good floor if nothing else.
I'm on hold to finish this project for a couple of months, good thing this is a dedicated room or the wife would have KILLED ME by now. Hope it looks as good as yours does when it's done!
I bought the X1 on line from Dell. It was on sale for under $900 and had two year warrenty, Infocus had a special going were they added three more years to the warrenty for a total of five years. Bulb life had also been upgraded on this projector to 4,000 hours (bulbs are $300) so you want a model with long bulb life and cheap bulb costs..the X1 has both of these.
I also needed a projector that could throw a 100" picture at longer distance..no less than 17' and the X1 can do that. There are a couple of adaptor cables that do not come with the X1, the component-S Video adaptor is $25 from Infocus and progressive signal (should you also use it) requires a component-DB-15 (?) type of cable. These can be found on E-bay at good prices, I bought mine there.
I took a chance on the color wheel issue and picture as I had never seen the X1 in play and only knew what I had read at the AVS-forum, I had viewed some screen shots that some of the members posted at that forum and was impressed.
Here's the kicker, I take this thing out of the box and place it on an end-table..point it at a wall and feed it a DVD...BLOWN AWAY on a wall with no screen. The picture was so big and so clear I could not beleave something this cheap could do this. The screen shots from this little toy I had been looking at were for real, even on a flat white wall.
If this sounds like I am happy with mine, I am. At your price range there are several good buys out there. Your needs are limited like mine so any of the Bang for Buck projectors may work very well for you. Bulb life/bulb cost/throw distance/warrenty may be your most important issues. I don't think any of the lower priced projectors work well in bright rooms, you will need to move up in price for that, the X1 does well in dim light though so does not need total dark to look good.
The Infocus X1 is a great little projector and has fantastic picture quality. It fits my needs very well which are somewhat limited compared to what others may need (a couple of DVD's a week is all). We watch almost all television in another room (except most sports). The screen I have tacked up is not my real screen (I made this one for $35 as a simple test screen). The Infocus X1 is one of those Bang for Buck type of components that I also found out about at AVS-forum..it is everything they say it is for the person with limited needs or budget so would not be for everyone. I forget what they call the problem some people see which are caused by the color-wheel, no one in my home can see them so we all love this projector for widescreen dvd's. If your needs are more than mine then you may want something at around the $3,000-$5,000 range that will throw a true Hi-Def picture for other source besides dvd.
Slipknot
The room was my garage, it was set-back from the house and only attached to the rear corner of the house by a small breez-way. I tore the breez-way off and had built a new dining room addition on to the side of the house..I had a new garage built in front of that. The house is now somewhat L-shape from the front. At this point my son and I took over the re-build of the new music room and at this point are done except for the sheet-rock/carpet/bookcases/acoustical treatments and other odds and ends. We built a very solid room with double walls. I did raise and insulate the floor 1.5 inches above the cement floor, I used treated 2X10's laid on their sides with .75 inch tung and groove on top, this gave me a warm, solid floor with no bounce. The bedrooms are all at the other end of the house so you would really have to crank it up to levels over anything I would ever think of doing to bother anyone. I run three large Vmps subs for movies and the bass info. is held to the room by the floor and double wall construction for the most part. I also had the elect. service moved to the side of the new garage, I had a 100 amp box installed in the new garage with dedicated lines for the music room, the rest of the house is on another service panel inside the house.
This is a great project that you may want to take on if you have it in mind already..it did take me about 5 years to work up the nerve I will admit..but I was full of ideas by then. I'm going to get out of Michigan (Florida) for about a month soon and will start my sheet-rock soon after I return.
The Apogee and Magneplaners are fantastic design that move air in a very special way that I could never grow tired of listening to. ya gotta love-um for what they can do.
The bass panel on the Apogees also covers much of the mid-range body or bloom if thats what I can call it. If I were to move to the larger Apogee 3-way models and a tri-amp setup with different X-over the story may be different.
The speakers sound very good with only the Ksa-250 to drive them full-range. If I had not tried this passive bi-amp setup (the wife was out of town and I had to much time on my hands)my speakers would still have only the Ksa-250 on them.
To be honest, I was not expecting an upgrade in sound and thought a down grade may result because of the different gain between these two amps. The Apogees have switches on the back..high/normal/low that adjust output of the MRT's. The Kav-500 also has gain switches on it, the Ksa-250 is feed balanced connection and the Kav-500 is fed single ended connection, as luck would have it..this was enough adjustment that everything just fell into place.
Biggest improvements were: Soundstage moved more forward, gained bloom and is much more real picture. A slight shrillness on some female voice (Alison Krauss for one) is gone. The harmonica in Cowboy Junkies trinity sessions (a recording I love)has always sounded bright on every speaker I have listened to it on..the Apogees were no exception but were better than most I thought..I don't skip that song now as it sounds perfict to my ear. The Bass on the Duetta's has always been full and goes down into the upper twenties in my room, while these improvements were more slight to my ear (I was more than happy already) they are there..I roll the bass into subs at 35HZ in my current setup with a Paradigm X-over but I do let the Apogees run full-range.
I had a friend (he died) that had the Carver Amazing speakers and I always thought that they could be a great speaker if driven and setup properly..his were not. I would think that those speakers could benefit and be well worth dragging out for a listen..they are even more power hungry than my Apogees from what I remember and can get a little on the shrill side with some music as all planer/stats can.
I would think that a big SS amp that could stop all the bass drivers on a dime with a somewhat sweet (maybe even tubed) amp for the top end and a room on the larger side of things could sound very good. An active X-over is another thing to think about, maybe even more so than me because of their hi-bred design.
